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 How to Judge a Debate?

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mouthpiece
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PostSubject: How to Judge a Debate?   Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:16 am

This thread is looking for criterea for judging the upcoming debates.

For instance, Lady Hawk makes a great point. Why are the questions a secret? Does the Mayor have to think quick on his feet during a meeting? Come on, the reason the questions are a secret is there is a hope that someone will be embarassed and lose the election. Do you honestly believe that the Mayor hasn't seen the questions? I personally think this is a no-brainer. The only people the Independent is fooling is themselves.

I think one of the important criterea is the ability of a candidate to take a problem and find a solution. Problem-solving would be important, because we cannot predict what the problems of tomorrow will be.

The second criterea is the ability to hear the citizens. What are the citizens wanting from their government? Listening skills are important.

I have named two criterea, now let's hear from the rest of you.
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PostSubject: Other Criterea We Need to Examine   Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:27 am

As many attempt to change the focus of the need for change, we need to move in a direction that favors good government. The great political thinkers George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan and even President John F. Kennedy encoureaged debate and freedom of speech.

"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. ~John F. Kennedy"

In the debate tomorrow we should be looking for creativity, thought provoking and an idea to promote this community.

We are no longer tied to this area. The markets have expanded and Ortonville needs to be creative in marketing new products in the new era.

In doing that we need to allow both sides equal access and hear both sides.

You will note the positive aspect of this site, despite an obvious disagreement as to whether or not Ted Kennedy should be idolized, this site did not censor the other opinion.

In fact, I have always considered myself a conservative on value issues and a moderate on other issues. However the President's attack on Fox to move the debate in a different direction on healthcare was exactly what occured in the other thread on this site. I did not compare myself to Fox, I compared the tactics of the writer to the White House.

There are those who honestly believe that the government has the right study and all other studies are biased. I disagree.

Other nations in the world and most people would see that the current adminstration of censorship, nepotism and favoritism, as leading to one of the most corrupt nations in the world.

Local communities on the fringe need to listen to all ideas. The damage that has been done has been done by the Mayor himself.

During meetings he is rude and is attempting to shove his opinion down the throats of others.

Is the Mayor using the concession stand at the foot of the lake as an attempt to roust support to win election?

I generally support the playgorund; however, the timing is horrible and appears to be politics at its worse.

Why not wait until after the election?

I believe in good government and when I saw good government I reported that as well.

I am very suspicious of this debate and I believe that the questions will be cushy. That will not serve our community well!
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:59 am

It's obvious from your previous posts that you would be suspicious of any debate in which you didn't play a role. Is there anyone in the community who could moderate this debate that you could find acceptable? I doubt it.

Now to set the record straight (nice try to cross post and cloud the previous issue Mouthpiece). I don't idolize Senator Kennedy. Never have. I suspect you have a deep seated hate for the deceased Senator (and those of his ilk including the mayor of Ortonville) which led to the posting of your (Australian/East Coast by way of New Orleans) cartoon.

You did indeed compare yourself to Fox News or at least tried to put yourself on the same playing field with them. Your direct quote "Fox News, similiarly has been attacked, just like we were. I am stupid because I do not agree with Jorge". (And again, who is this "we" you keep mentioning.) and for the record one mentioned stupid, just you. You've had free rein on this forum for over 600 posts and obviously consider yourself to be in the company of the "hannity, coulter, limbaugh" elite. You appear to appreciate their tactics of criticism and denigration. Go back through your posts-what you have in common with these conservative Republican entertainers is that you are consistently negative. Fox News makes millions catering to that far right fringe who can be spoon fed the current negativity that passes for "news" and can easily be led to believe that anything spoken on the Fox News Network is political Gospel. For anyone capable of thinking for themselves and formulating their own political opinions Fox News is pure entertainment-Hannity knows that and is laughing all the way to the bank.

You might want to start another post and we can begin examining "censorship, nepotism and favoritism" as it pertains to the past presidential administrations. President Obama's administration is no different than the past Democratic and Republican administrations in this regard. If you want to argue that prepare for a fight. Presidential politics in this country are all about "censorship, nepotism and favoritism" and will continue to be so as long as we have a general public who is informed by your so-called New Media.
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PostSubject: Welcome!   Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:07 pm

First, I want to welcome you to this site. I have wanted a far left extremist on the site for a long time and actually encouraged a number of my open-minded friends. Were you offended when I called you a far left extremist?

Letís debate the point without the label. I do not think that of you and would appreciate it if you would quit trying to label me. Now I will let you know who I am, both you and LindaS. By the way LindaS my copy of the cartoon had no copyright and was received from Australia. Your weak kneed attempt to claim it was illegal was akin to ACORNís accusation that we should all be angry with the parties wanting to set up a prostitution ring, instead of ACORN. Let's stay focused.

I am a middle of the road conservative who does not like big business generally. I despise big business manipulating results against injured parties. I have in previous posts, indicated that insurance companies tend to write out the risks with excuses like pre-existing conditions.

I am also opposed to big government and/or oppressive government. I view big as generally bad.

I graduated from the Liberal school of Concordia College of Moorhead, Minnesota and received my law degree from Washburn University School of Law in Topeka, Kansas where my emphasis was Rural Development and Agricultural Law.

Through college I worked for Cenex spraying fields and delivering fertilizer. I also picked rock and baled alfalfa. I love rural America.

I have testified on behalf of rural America in Minnesota Hearings in St. Paul 10-12 times and I have testified in United States Congressional Hearings. My expertise was generally sought by Dakota Rural and other Democratic organizations. I generally found Republicans to be more supportive of corporate farming and Democrats more supportive of Family Farms. I advocate for family farms and will continue to advocate for family farms.

I find myself more in the middle than in the extremes. On the cartoon, we have taken the position that we will not be bullied. Calling for censorship was not considered. Our committee voted against censorship of the cartoon. While the Ortonville website continues to be plagued with unorthodox behavior I suspect the attack on this site is a red herring. The real abuses are occurring on the city web site.

Nationally I respect the politics of John F. Kennedy as he encouraged the common citizen to participate in government. I lean more towards Colmes than Hannity. I strongly support the Blue-dog democrats who have the most difficult decisions of all.

I am afraid to admit this but I have never listened to Limbaugh and good try to label me.

Now to the local politics. Have you not read the newspaper in the last six years? Do you only listen to one media? Whatís wrong with listening to two sides to an issue. I do not trust the Ortonville Dependent or the radio station. They have personally attacked me and incorrectly reported facts.

Did you not read my posts? I said I trust Paul Zahn. He is the moderator. I do not believe in not giving the candidates the questions. What is secret?

Now, I have been involved in debate most of my life starting in the eighth grade. I have attended the National Debate of Universities, while at Concordia as a debater. I understand public communications. Let me tell you what I understand about you and LindaS.

We will never agree on some of the issues and I will have enough respect to listen to you. LindaS I dislike your use of studies as much as you dislike mine. There is no magic study. Most if not all studies have an agenda. Relying on the best study is like buying the biggest fullback. It does not mean you win.

I believe in good government. I find it ironic that both of you bully me just like at city hall. The mayor has and is generally rude to the guests. There is a lack of listening as he crams down his opinion. The taxpayer does not matter.

I think we can tell the kind of man we are dealing with. Mayor Johnson would not even consider appearing if I were the moderator at the debate. His opponent walks into the lionís den knowing that Ms. Kaercher has been extremely personal in the newspaper.

As I said earlier, the real judging will be whether Ms. Kaercher and Ms. French can be open minded and fair given their past comments.
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PostSubject: I don't see a red herring...   Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:26 pm

Well, jorge016, it has been a long time since I have engaged with a person of....ahem....your stature? Don't know where all that steam came from that you were blowing off but I hope you feel better now.

It is interesting that you should come on just at this moment when the Ortonville debate is about to take place and start squealing like a stuck pig about this site. Perhaps it is just coincidence but you have spent the last two days venting and while it has most likely been very entertaining for you and those people who delight in causing confusion and mayhem there are those of us who have not lost their focus and are interested in the upcoming debate.

One very well known tactic in trying to get people off track is to make the messenger the issue. Mouthpiece has been informing the public as to some of the things to watch for and you have been snipping at his heels for days now. Don't you have anything to say about the debate? Are you interested in what the candidates think?

It never ceases to amaze me that some people will come on this site wailing that it is negative but never saying what they like about the public servants whom they are...umm...defending? Rather than crying "Foul" when the actions of public servants are being scrtinized you could respond with how you like them. All this smoke and mirrors didn't fool me one bit. I am still interested in the debate.

The debate is tomorrow. Why don't you check it out and then come on the site and tell your perspective of the candidates. If you have an opinion about the politics in Ortonville then talk about it.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:31 am

My posts had nothing to do with local politics-had everything to do with the administration of a supposed "community building' website. You as administrator must have some responsibility for what is posted here. A politically charged cartoon directed towards a local politician in a most personal manner was posted - not as a political post- but on the portal of this website. Absolutely shows your political and personal bias as an administrator. To make matters worse an attorney, who should have had a least basic knowledge of copyright law, used a copyrighted cartoon from an Louisiana newspaper cartoonist and says he got it in Australia. You are lucky it's just me who in your words "squeals like a stuck pig" - it could have been Steve Kelley-the cartoonist who's work you stole. He may have squealed his way right into your bank account via litigation.

I have no interest in Ortonville politics-have no relationship with any of the involved parties, only find personal attacks of the kind that cartoon was portraying to be divisive in a small community. As long as we're at it why does a Big Stone City resident have such a keen interest in Ortonville politics?

Who is on this committee that Mouthpiece claims to be involved with on this site? Care to elaborate on who mouthpieces "we" are? Maybe it's time for you as a administrator to take journalistic responsibilty for this site. Have you any idea what any of the tenets of responsible journalism are? Based on you posts I doubt it.


Last edited by jorge016 on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:59 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : missed word)
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:15 pm

jorge
I have re-read your posts, looking for anything that seems to be remotely constructive -- can't find it.
While you seem to be very impressed with your own ability to attack and insult, it looks like you sole objective is, as Lady Hawk picked up, to create an uncomfortable, negative atmosphere and detract from the main issues.
There are problems in Ortonville. Anyone who's paying attention knows it. Smack talk and baiting, while distracting and unpleasant, aren't going to change it.
People need to change it. And those people need information and the accountability to act on what they've discovered.
P.S. Sorry you don't get the concept of participation in governance. I can only hope you locked onto the Fox News line of taunting as a tactic and not because you thought it was remotely an intelligent point to make.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:50 am

zorro-sorry you think I'm so negative.

Did you see the cartoon that started all this? Even if you despise every political leader in Ortonville or Big Stone County can you possibly legitimize the use of a cartoon that draws inference to two absolutely tragic incidents in which there was loss of life, Chappaquidick and Guantanamo, to small town politics? And in theory even if you agree with the use of the particular cartoon-does a politically charged cartoon belong on the portal of a website self proclaimed as a community portal. Place that cartoon in it's proper context, that being a political forum, this discussion would have never taken place.

This website absolutely does a public service. I applaud its layout computer whiz did a great job laying it out. That said, take a look at the demographics of the posters. Politically it's being dominated primarily by a couple of posters. Posters who don't like their political stances or methods challenged. When they are challenged the contend that they are "bullied" or "taunted". I stand accused of having a agenda and detracting from the issues. I have no agenda other than to inform the readers of this forum that the improper use of a politically charged cartoon did nothing to provide political information or promote civility in this community.
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PostSubject: Thank you for Your Support   Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:51 am

Thank you Jorge0016 and Zorro for your support. As I have indicated the cartoon received criticism and support. Ted Kennedy himself was very concerned about the accident shortly before his death.

The debate is now over and I welcome you to the site to give the more liberal point of view.

I would point out that the local newspaper has only 1 or 2 writers and the radio station only a handful of jockeys.

Have a great day and look forward to discussing other topics with you.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:59 pm

The reason Chappaquiddick won't go away is because of the tragedy that occurred there. Ted left a party drunk with a woman not his wife, to go to "her place." The ferry had already shut down so he decided to use the bridge -- a wooden affair, barely two lanes wide, with almost no rail. She died. He left the scene, daddy Joe put the machine in motion, and Ted reappeared after he'd sobered up and daddy had fixed it as much as he could.
Ted spent a lot of his career living that down. He did a lot of good in the country and the world -- which he may well have done anyway. He didn't give up women...or drinking.
I was touched by his letter to the Pope. I know he'd have wanted to change what happened that night -- but he didn't take accountability for it. Things like that don't go away.
How did you feel when everyone had bumper stickers that said, "More people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than as a result of nuclear power plant accidents?"
It won't go away.
I remember Chappaquiddick quite distinctly. Ted didn't seem to like the role daddy assigned him, but he played it. Then he tried to learn to live with it.
It won't go away.
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PostSubject: C'mon Zorro   Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:24 pm

Nice report on Chappaquiddick-now put it in the context of Big Stone County. Again did you see the cartoon? Does the mayor of a small town in Minnesota deserve to be compared (regardless of how you might feel about him) with Chappaquiddick and Guantanamo? That's the issue I want to see addressed here. Is Mouthpiece implying that said mayor is guilty of drunk driving, consorting with women other than his wife or just bad judgment?

Mouthpiece and LadyHawk obviously won't address the improper use of a copyrighted cartoon so I'll ask again. Who's responsible in this "new media" when fundamentals of journalistic ethics ie. copyright laws are not followed?
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PostSubject: Community Portal?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:31 am

jorge016 I am baffled by your comments. In the first place this thread is supposed to be about the debate and you have us talking about some political cartoon again. I had told you in a previous post that I took your comments to heart and you are still bringing it up. Political cartoons have often stung. That is the point of them. They show the tragedy of people in power and the defenseless people whom they affect. There have always been political cartoons that deal with such things like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, O.J., George Bush was vilified for years and the list goes on. Politics is part of a community. It is not the whole part but locally when an election comes up it is the main interest.

jorge016 wrote:
does a politically charged cartoon belong on the portal of a website self proclaimed as a community portal.

What do you think this is? Words mean things. The paper and the radio are also there for the community. They are a business, we are a business. Should one be offended when the paper or the radio puts out a story about a tragic murder. Should one blame the paper for the image they are portraying of the community on their front page?

You say the words "community portal." What community portal are you speaking of? When we use the words community we are referring to the fact that any person in the community is welcome to contribute. (Albeit respectfully.) We are not a "community portal" in the sense that we are a government entity that is owned by the public. That is the city website and we can see how biased that website is.

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but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
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PostSubject: Here is the comparison?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:03 am

Jorge,

Why the melodrama? I am so sorry you could not see the obvious. I thought the Kennedy cartoon was so supposed to depict hypocrisy?

Here we have a Mayor who has forced at least two families to move out of this area. Wrote a letter to city hall about the Police Chief, treats the common citizen on the Peninsula and in the High Rise as if their opinion does not count, interrupts anyone who has a differing opinion and wants to be treated politely on this forum.

The cartoon like this posts is about hyprocrisy. One last comment, it is also like our president who took the oath to defend the Constitution and then censors a news station.

In your mind I am sure you can defend both, but I believe that a majority of the public disagrees.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:19 am

Lady Hawk I too am baffled by your response. As I've said consistently
I have no interest in Ortonville mayoral politics - I am not a
constituent-it does not affect me. If you feel that my post detracts
from the Ortonville debate you officially have my permission to move
this post to one entitled something like "Journalistic Responsibility
and the New Media". I will now attempt with a few questions to get a
few simple answers and then vow to never speak of the cartoon again.

Background:
I studied journalism years ago in college. I'm a newspaper
junkie-read daily as much of the the Washington Post, NY Times,
StarTribune and a handful of overseas papers as I have time for (which
isn't very much).

Question
1. Who is responsible for the editorial content of this site? In a
newspaper the editor is responsible for anything that is printed.
Copyrighted material cannot be used without prior permission and must
be credited. Mouthpiece has acknowledged that he was the source of the
cartoon. The cartoonist (Steve Kelley) would be well within his right
to at least obtain a cease and desist order at worst he could sue for
infringement. If that had happened do you think that Mouthpiece would
take legal responsibility - or would it have fallen on you as
administrator and owner of the domain. (I'm not sure who owns the
domain)

2. Again. As a Big Stone City citizen why do you have such a vested
interest in Ortonville politics. I suspect and please correct me if
I'm wrong that as administrator and major contributor to this website
that your reporting on the goings on of the Ortonville City Council are
a journalistic endeavor. If so you might explore the legal principle
of "fair-use" and journalistic integrity and responsibility. In
regards to the cartoon, you put yourself (as a journalist) in an
extremely uncomfortable position by allowing the Mayors name to be
printed in association with the cartoon. By using his name you as
administrator/editor directed your reader to compare the mayor
to the issues referred to in the cartoon. It then became a personal
attack on his character. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still cannot find any
correlation between Chappaquidick, Guantanamo prison, and the mayor of
Ortonville.

Answers to your questions-
You ask "what do I think this is"? I think you strive (and do a pretty
good job) of filling a niche for a online presence of our area. That
said, your political commentary is dominated by a few with the same
political bent. As I looked at past posts it appears to me that the
commentary is becoming more less and less objective.

What portal am I speaking of? The opening page to this site. You
placed a ill conceived, out of context cartoon on the front page of
your site. Do you see any newspaper, hear any radio shows, or see any
legitimate television newscasts that open with highly biased editorial
content. Probably not. Why? Bad business-it offends a certain
segment of the population that might not renew their subscription or
keep listening and watching. If your intent is to increase the
participation of area people on this forum-do you offend a few of them
at the start. Keep the politics on the political pages.
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Zorro
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:03 pm

Jorge
Journalism in this country is nearly dead.
This site is not journalism -- it's about public media, public participation, the kind of public involvement and engagement that was going on when a small group of patriots found each other and explored some thoughts that eventually became a Congress and a Declaration of Independence.

You mentioned your credentials -- here are mine. I have a bachelor's degree from one of the elite journalism schools in the country, and for 30 years I worked on nearly a daily basis with local, regional and national media. You name the media member, and I have probably worked directly with them.

I taught journalism at high school for one year, and college journalism for four years.

The major media outlets sold out a long time ago on their ethics and dove right into the fray, fighting for "the cause." Journalism evolved to basically opinionism. Economic conditions and technological advance further deteriorated the resources and staffing of former "real media" outlets. News became sound bites, journalists became scarce, overworked and poorly trained. Journalim simply isn't what it was and never will be again.

People have to reclaim their information muscles and re-teach themselves to research, evaluate, think critically and sort out the truth of things and an understanding. It's back in our hands. I have said for some time on this site, and it's more true than ever, that everyone is a journalist.

Just look at how journalism schools have reorganized -- they are now in the public relations departments, and generally include a generous founding of marketing, public opinion and community involvement courses...and one "journalism ethics" course, at the sophomore level. Newspaper writing isn't even taught any more.

If community forums like this don't gain solid ground and link people together, there will be a great void in community information and effectiveness in the futute. Newspapers are now "newsy," but they are far from journalistic, heavy hitters and some exceptions notwithstanding.

When marketing and news writing bear equal weight in an undergraduate degree, we are not talking about journalism of the past, as it was.

Now, here's what I want to say about "the cartoon." Get off it -- it is not the root of your displeasure or the point of your zeal in this matter -- it's a total side issue. Please figure out what your point is and stop obsessing with minutia. And it IS minutia -- a wrestling referee doesn't award points for the same hold over and over -- you got your 2 points, we're all proud of you, now move on with the match.

If I sound irritated, I can only admit that I am. Stop pushing the same button just because it keeps yelling, "Yea, Jorge!" to you and GET ON WITH IT -- do you have a coherent line of thinking that you wish to engage in on the public forum?
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:18 am

Zorro, I agree with almost all of your points about journalism. You are way off base in saying that the root of my displeasure is not in the cartoon. That is solely my point of contention. If the way that cartoon was used doesn't journalisticly and ethically offend you, especially with your experience, you miss the point. The fact that the administrator is silent on my questions on how this site is administered speaks volumes. This site may fill an information gap for this community, but it dominated by the opinionated views of a few.

I spent way too much time going back through this forum's past posts. All I can say is that I'm grateful I don't live in Ortonville. Allegations made of fraud, conflicts of interest, and financial misconduct paint a bleak present and worse future for the town. Funny thing is for all of the allegations, why doesn't the accuser (an officer of the court no less) get the Minnesota attorney general or league of municipalities involved? Lots of talk here-precious little action results from it.
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PostSubject: Trying to Change the Topic?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:21 am

Trying to Change the Topic?

I believe in good government. These are political issues not legal.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:38 am

mouthpiece wrote:
Trying to Change the Topic?

I believe in good government. These are political issues not legal.

Sure I'll change the subject. You want this to be about politics that frees you from all responsiblility. Maybe you could better serve Ortonville by having a visit with any number of legal authorities (county attorney included) who might be able to research and validate you allegations. I believe that some of your allegations probably have merit. (I've seen much of your volume of work-admire what you've done on the local level with the agricultural issues, just in case you think I'm looking to just grind you)
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PostSubject: Jorge, how many meetings have you attended.   Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:50 pm

Just out of idle curiousity how many city council meetings have you attended? It is the city council that lacked accountability not this site.

Going in front of this city council frightened people and frustrated many of its citizens. A taste of rudeness, interruptions and a complete lack of compassion. In the 22 years I seldom appeared at a city council meeting. In the last six years I have made numerous appearances.

When I appeared I was mocked, threatened, interrupted, and shouted down. Everyone can have a different opinion but we need to listen. I am looking forward to more of your posts. You notice we have not stopped you from your posts. In fact, we encouraged you.

We need good government. Government that listens to the people, fulfills promises like the police referundum and spends money in a responsible fashion.

There is a political philosopher and historian Lord Acton once said "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Checks and balances is the stalwart of our nation and the press has a duty to inform the public. The problem with the existing press is that large sums of money come from the government making its slant pro-government and holding government less accountable.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:00 pm

jorge016 wrote:
The fact that the administrator is silent on my questions on how this site is administered speaks volumes.
You use the term administrator in the singular term. Are you talking about just one admin?
jorge016 wrote:
This site may fill an information gap for this community, but it dominated by the opinionated views of a few.
If that is true you need to ask the people with other views why they don't voice their opinions. Anyone is welcome to give the counter point. This site can't force the counter point to speak.
jorge016 wrote:
I spent way too much time going back through this forum's past posts. All I can say is that I'm grateful I don't live in Ortonville. Allegations made of fraud, conflicts of interest, and financial misconduct paint a bleak present and worse future for the town.
The actions of the leadership in this community should be available to all members of the community to see. It will be up to them what they want to do about it. Without that knowledge how can the people know if they need a change or not? This information was available to the other news media in the area and they made no (I repeat NO) attempt to expose the actions of questionable behavior by the leadership. To some it even looked like they were justifying it.
jorge016 wrote:
Funny thing is for all of the allegations, why doesn't the accuser (an officer of the court no less) get the Minnesota attorney general or league of municipalities involved?

While you have presented your credentials for journalism you have not yet presented any credentials for the judicial system. A year ago I would probably have thought the same thing as you. Many people have gotten into the mentality that "Big Daddy Government" will protect them. Go ahead, give the Attorney General a call, see how far you get. People shouldn't expect some John Wayne to come riding into town to save them from themselves. Over the past year many hours have been spent researching this. For all that research the best solution to the problem was that "the people" need to take responsibility for the leaders that they elect and force them to be accountable.
jorge016 wrote:
Lots of talk here-precious little action results from it.
You are looking in the wrong place. Just because YOU don't see a reaction on this site you are assuming that no changes are taking place. That is where you are wrong. For every action there is a reaction. I have seen many changes. I have seen many responses. There have been reactions and changes made in city government (both good and bad) because of this site. (I KNOW they read it) Even the local news media has made changes over the past year to improve. They don't acknowledge our existence but again I know they are watching us and trying to better their image. This website has had a positive effect already on this community. People are talking and feeling empowered. We are looking forward to continually serving the community and helping the City of Ortonville becoming a better place. Thanks jorge016 for giving me an opportunity to talk about this. I don't have time now to talk specifics but hopefully later will have the time to mention some of them.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson
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jorge016
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:21 pm

Mouthpiece, in my capacity as an environmental manager of a company
I've attended and testified at more city council, zoning commission and
planning commissions than I can count. The one thing I learned very
quickly was that if you go into a municipal meeting thinking that you're a hammer and everyone else is a nail-you often lose. It appears from your posts you've done plenty of hammering to little if any avail. To satisfy your idle curiosity-you won't see me at any Ortonville City meetings-as previously noted-I'm not a Ortonville resident.

LadyHawk-you lost me. Why would I need any judicial system experience to state what I did? Did I call on "Big Daddy" gov't to do anything? Are you telling me that when fraud and financial impropriety are alleged that nothing should be done other than to post on this site? Mouthpiece throws out the allegations-he's a knowledgeable and experienced jurist he certainly knows how to pursue them. I think it's a lot easier to call all of the issues politics and wait for the elections. If he does nothing about allegations but voice them on his bully pulpit-is that enough? It's laughable that with all the hammering he does on the current mayor that Mouthpiece is peeved that he wasn't invited to play a role in the debate. Maybe it's time to get off the sideline and run for office.

As far as administration of the site is concerned-I don't know how many administrators there are. Go back to mouthpieces responses to my questioning the cartoon. He refers to "we", I'd guess that means that there is more than 1 administrator and somehow he's involved.


Last edited by jorge016 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:25 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammer mistake)
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mouthpiece
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PostSubject: The successes   Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:55 am

Oh how forgetful you are. I agree with style making a difference. Mr. Horman was cleared by malicious accusations made by the Mayor. He then moved.

That is one of the reasons I am here. In this town when an employee wins and is right, the mayor did not quit.

The mayor ran a family out of town and has destroyed jobs, good paying jobs and claims to be in favor of EDA.

These are political issues. By the way, one of my resources represented 10 or more cities, maybe you know him. He was a city attorney for almost fifty years.

We can change this city to someone who is more cordial.

At the hearings I have named others have complemented me on my presentation. Sometimes you have to be aggressive and sometimes when you are treated correctly things go smooth.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Judge a Debate?   

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