Is it the job of David Lang to make public data available?

Last edited by Lady Hawk on Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total

On May 13, 2009 a request for public data was made to City Clerk/Administrator Mr. David Lang for specific information of the EDA. Two of the requests were to see the Balance Sheet for the EDA and the Profit and Loss Statements for 2005 to 2008. It has now been almost 7 weeks and Mr. Lang has not produced the information. Numerous trips have been made to the city office for the requested information. Mr. Lang has repeatedly told me he was hoping to get that information to me soon.

On Friday the 19th of June at 2:00 p.m. I stopped in to see Mr. Lang in the city office and again he repeated "I hope to have all your requests in by next Friday." He said in the meantime I could look at the auditors statement. I told him I would look at it while I wait for the information that I am requesting.

I returned to the city office as per Mr. Langs request after 4:00 p.m the next Friday. Mr. Lang said he had the EDA minutes there for me to read and he pointed to 4 very large 3 ring binders. I told him it was to late in the day for me to do anything with it and said I would return on Monday morning to look at them.

The rest of the conversation went along these lines:
"What about the Balance Sheet and the Profit and Loss Statement?"
"I gave that to you in earlier in the audit."
"You gave me the audit to look at while I was waiting for the Balance Sheet and the Profit and Loss Statement."

"It's all in there."
"No it's not. The audit specifically states that they did NOT audit the EDA."
"Well, I'll have to talk with the auditor to see about getting the audit."

"Why are we talking about an audit. I didn't ask for an audit. I asked for the Balance Sheet and the Profit and Loss Statement of the EDA."
"Well, it's late and we'll talk about that next week."

These delays have been going on for months now. I see no point in going to the city council because they ignore my requests. I have made requests to the Ortonville City Council and they have not responded. Artie Arndt has written a letter to the Chamber and the City Council acknowledging that the City Council and the Chamber will ignore me and so far that seems to be the pattern.

Artie Arndt wrote:: I have also visited with several council members and chamber board members that feel it would be best if we just ignore the nonsense and not respond anymore to the letters.

See post March 16, 2009 Artie Arndt's letter to the Chamber Directors. Yo, Ho, Ho

One has to wonder what Mr. Lang and the others are trying to hide by not making public data available to the public.

Subject: Missing minutes of the EDA Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:07 am

I posted very little on The Forums last week because I was busy going over the EDA minutes for 2006, 2007, and 2008.

Mr. Lang left the books for me to look over at the city office with no instructions. It would take numerous hours to view them. After standing at the counter for an hour one of the office help noticed that Mr. Lang had not provided a chair for me or a place to work. The counter at the city office is small and people came in and it was rather crowded. The office help graciously found me a chair and a space to sit and work. Mr. Lang appeared to have no interest in accommodating me while I looked over the books.

One couldn't help but notice the presence of Mr. Lang early in the office everyday that I was there. For the past few months when I have gone into the office to speak to Mr. Lang he was not in until later in the morning. However all last week Mr. Lang was in when I came in at 8:30 a.m.

After four days of looking over the books I informed Vicki Oakes that three meetings were missing. She said she would look into it. When I came back a few hours later two of the minutes were found and placed in the book but one of them was still missing. There was a note from Vicki Oakes that she would have to see Mr. Lang about the missing minutes.

It is interesting that the minutes for December were found but January were still missing. Is there some reason Vicki could lay her hands on the December minutes but the January were not in the same place even though they were the next meeting? Does it have anything to do with the decision that was to be made at that next meeting in January?

I discovered early in my adult life that if I had to hide something -- from someone or from everyone -- it probably wasn't a good idea to be engaged in it. I later discovered that there are really only three reasons people hide things -- they know it's WRONG, or they lack the courage to stand and face life, or they are cheating/stealing. Hiding things isn't a redeemable action, really.

Subject: Being Polite is the Key Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:27 am

I also recently went up to the city offices to examine documents with LadyHawk and was also treated rudely by the City Clerk.

As the rest of the staff was congenial and polite, I pointed out to Mr. Lang that I had a velo-bind machine and the documents we were requesting could be easily re-bound. This had been a previous concern of Mr. Lang.

He snapped back that he did not have time and was just rude. I was sitting in the middle of the clerk's office and the feeling of being awkward was at best disingenous of Mr. Lang. I verify the feelings of Ladyhawk in this regard.

Mr. Lang takes his time in producing these documents and when we showed up it was a three-ring circus.

I know that Mr. Lang does not like me, but a good public servant needs to serve the public instead of making his job easier.

When the experience was over I felt like I had disrupted Mr. Lang's busy schedule and that I was a burden. He treated me as if I had no right to the information and I felt like it was wrong for me to look at public documents.

Mr. Lang needs to make changes and his efforts to delay the production of the documents and make it difficult to examine the documents really demonstrates that we can do better in Ortonville.

If he treats me this way, How will he treat a new business interested in the area? Maybe I represent the new business looking at Ortonville. That is the nature of my business!

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Intimidation is a cheap tactic. Full steam ahead!

Perhaps this individual would not be as aggravated with you and Lady Hawk if you would simply bug out and let "them" run the city the way "they" see fit. All this democracy and obeying open meeting laws and accountability ... it's so passe, isn't it?

NOT!

It's one thing not to have the time to be accountable to the public up front in actions...it's another to withhold and stall after that fact.

Member Number of posts : 37 Registration date : 2009-04-05

How do you know these are the "true" books? One can delete what one doesn't want shown. Maybe that's why it's taken so long to get them.

Subject: Missing Eahtonka minutes? Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:52 am

LittleDeb wrote:: How do you know these are the "true" books? One can delete what one doesn't want shown. Maybe that's why it's taken so long to get them.

A good point LittleDeb. Let's see what we have so far.

Last week on Tuesday Mr. Lang informed me that they would make copies for me on Tuesday or Wednesday this week. Mr. Lang made me that promise knowing full well that he was going to be gone this week. This is a trip he has been planning for months. Now I show up to get my copies and he isn't there? Now I have to wait another week? Oh boy

In the meantime what are we finding? Well, the EDA minutes of Dec 19, 2007 and Jan 10, 2008 are missing. I informed Vicki Oakes of that fact and she said she would look into it. A few hours later I returned to the city office and Vicki Oakes had placed the minutes for Dec 19 in the book but left me a note that she would have to talk to David about the Jan 10 minutes. haveuheard

There were two things of interest in the minutes of 12/19/07. The first one being in the agenda it states that the Eahtonka was discussed. (It was written in by hand.) In the agenda section of the minutes it states that the Eahtonka would be discussed. However, NO WHERE in the minutes is the Eahtonka discussed. So, what are we to think? Vicki is informed that minutes are missing. Vicki goes back to her private office. On Computer

Vicki gets on her computer. Now we have the minutes. What could possibly be the reason that the Eahtonka is not discussed in the minutes? whistle

Subject: Copies Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:22 pm

Were you charged for copies of what you requested?
Just curious.

On Computer

nascargirl

The price for copies is still vague. money

In the first place Mr. Lang has to approve the copies that I want. So again I wait another week for Mr. Lang to come back and approve them. In the city office before Mr. Lang wrote up the "new" policy one could walk in to the city office and ask for the information and it would be handed over to you. Now Mr. Lang has to "approve" it.

I asked Mr. Lang how much it would cost me to get the copies and the conversation went something along these lines.

"How much will it cost to make copies?"
"The cost is listed on page 5."

"It says you can charge me .25 cents per page and $30.00 per hour. Is there going to be a $30.00 per hour charge for this?"

"We are allowed to charge a fee of $30.00 per hour."

"Are you going to charge me a $30.00 per hour fee?"
"I won't know what we are going to charge you until we have the information and see what it takes."

I can't get a straight answer out of him.

Here is the link to the page in the city policy which lists the charges. Page 5

I also happened to notice at the end of the page that little comment about how they can also charge for data that has "commercial value." I wonder how he is going to interpret that? poker

Over the years that my office provided copies of public records on request, we also had an option of charging for them. We never did so unless assembling them cost considerable time -- as in, more than one day of labor by one person, or more than 500 pages of copies. In those cases, we might charge only for the copies - usually only what it cost us to produce them, not the full amount allowed (4 cents, not 30 cents, AFTER the first 250 pages), and if it took more than a full day to search for and assemble them (it's the finding and organizing, not the copying itself, that takes time), we would charge about $100 a day AFTER the first full day, up to $200. I don't remember ever charging more -- they are, after all, public records, and public servants are employed in part to provide them. It is CORE work, not extra or above and beyond. The fees we charged were rarely assessed to anyone, and only when the expectation was a difficult one, like, "Find me everything you have on replacing light bulbs." In nearly every case I can recall, with maybe one or two exceptions, those charged were doing legal research and we were engaged in performing research, as well, not JUST COPYING!

Second point, we always were clear with the requestor at the outset whether they would be charged, with a caveat that we may waive it if the work was less than we anticipate. But the customer has a right to know the threshhold of what will trigger charges -- in our case, it was normally more than 250 pages, and/or more than 8 manhours of assembling and copying. That's a basic common courtesy. Uncertainty as to final cost, if any, is one thing -- intimidating or rude vagueness is another.

Subject: Copies Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:28 pm

I agree with Zorro's post - when I have requested copies from various sources, they usually tell you up front the cost. Research is one thing, making copies is another thing.
.
Wonder what they would charge per copy if you brought your own paper? money

.

nascargirl

Subject: The price of copies? Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:26 am

I told Mr. Lang that I could bring in my own copier to make the copies. He refused to allow me to do that. It is doubtful that he would allow me to bring any paper either.

Subject: Copier/Paper Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:47 pm

Lady Hawk -- You are very inventive! You certainly were giving the City the opportunity to save employee's time and money.

Maybe they didn't want to figure out how much to charge you for the electricity you would use?

Good luck in your quest.

On Computer

nascargirl

Last week Mr. David Lang informed me that he would have “most” of my long delayed requests for public data on Monday. I came into the city office on Monday afternoon and Mr. Lang laid a single piece of paper on the counter for me. It informed me that my request for the city council reports would be available on next Friday. This is the most recent request and ignores the other requests including some that are over 9 weeks old.

I had suspected that Mr. Lang was going to attempt to charge me as much money for the documents that he could. He was alluding to the fact that he could charge me .25 cents a copy and up to $30.00 (or more) for the time it took to produce them. In an effort to save time and money I requested that the city give me electronic copies. The city already has the documents on a computer and I gave the city a flash drive and requested that the documents be transferred to the flash drive thereby saving the cost of paper copies and the person to take the time to make them. It was a win-win for both of us.

On Monday Mr. Lang then informed me that he would have to talk to “someone” (he never identifies who he is consulting) about having the documents being changed to PDF files. He stated that PDF files are more secure and they don’t want city documents going out and having people change them and publishing them and stating that the changed documents are the “official” documents.

I respectfully pointed out to Mr. Lang that anyone could take the PDF and print it and scan it back into the computer and alter it if they wanted. Changing the files to PDF is not any more secure than a Word Document. Mr. Lang stated that he wasn’t going to argue technical’s with me and he had to go.

I wrote a complaint to the City Council and read it to them at the meeting that night (8/3/09) It appears to me that Mr. Lang is using this as an excuse to gouge me by charging me $30.00 and hour to have some office worker take the time to change every document I want into a PDF file.

Below is my letter to the City Council.
Letter to the Mayor and City Council.

Considering that it is not I who has a problem writing incorrect minutes for the City Council I find Mr. Lang’s fear of someone altering documents ridiculous. The city is the keeper of the original documents. If anyone were to produce altered documents then all one has to do is to go to the city and see the originals. It would discredit the person who produced the altered document. It is illogical. There is no gain or benefit to the city to make these files PDF. All it will do is cost time and money which will delay even further my request for documents and cost me more.

The morning after the city council meeting I again went to the city office because Mr. Lang failed to address when he would produce the other documents that I have requested. MR. Lang was in the front Office when I arrived and I told him I would like to find out when I would be receiving the other documents. My first request Mr. Lang informed me that he had already complied with. In fact he did give me part of what I requested but I was still waiting for the Profit and Loss Statement and the Balance Sheet for the EDA. The conversation followed along on these lines:

“I gave that to you in the Audit.”
“It wasn’t in the Audit.”

“It is the same.”
“Are you saying that a Profit and Loss Statement is the same thing as an Audit?”

Mr. Lang said condescendingly, “Penny do you know anything about bookkeeping? What do you know about these things. I can’t explain them to you.”

“Are you saying that a Profit and Loss is the same as an audit?”

At this point a man came in with a question and as I didn’t want to discuss this in front of him I told Mr. Lang he could wait on him. After answering the man's question I again pressed Mr. Lang for an answer.

“Mr. Lang are you saying that a Profit and Loss is the same as an Audit.”
“ A Profit and Loss is a kind of Income Statement.”

“First we were talking about Profit and Loss Statements and Audits and now you add an Income Statement. Mr. Lang this is a clear yes or no question. Is a Profit and Loss Statement the same as an Audit.”

“I have to go, I don’t have time for this.” Mr. Lang proceeded to turn away from me and walk back to his office.
“Mr. Lang you have not answered my first question. When will I get to see the Profit and Loss Statement?”

Mr. Lang replied with his back to me as he walked away, “I’ll have to talk to the accountant.”
“Mr. Lang who is the accountant for the EDA?”

At this point Mr. Lang stopped short of entering the hallway and turned frustratedly to me and said, “You know, if you read the stuff I gave you already you would know who it is.”

“The Audit you gave me specifically stated that they did not audit the EDA. Who is the accountant for the EDA? That is a straight forward question.”
“Well, that’s who it is.”

“Are you saying the accounting firm of Allen who made the audit is also the accountant for the EDA?”

“Yes.” Then Mr. Lang again turned into the hallway and walked away.
“Thank you Mr. Lang for answering my question.”

I wonder why, if the accounting firm who made the city audit is the same one who does the accounting for the EDA, they didn't audit the EDA books in the city audit? Can an accounting firm audit books that they are keeping? This answer only makes more questions.

In retrospect I thought about how Mr. Lang attempted to ridicule my intelligence by questioning what I knew about bookkeeping practices. In truth that was not a proper question for the City Clerk to ask. Any citizen may ask for documentation and it is not the business of the City Clerk if they know how to read it or not. Didn't Mr. Arndt make comments that people were not intelligent enough to understand the stuff and they should just let the elected leaders make the decision? This thought might evidently permeate deep into the city government. Make the people feel stupid. I wonder if he got that idea from Mr. Lang or did Mr. Lang get the idea from Mr. Arndt?
Nonresidents Welcome?

As a point of record I had been making requests of Mr. Lang for some time and he was responding to my requests. The information was interesting but not useful. At the time I didn’t know what to look for. I went to someone who knew about such things and asked what I should be asking for. That person is the one who told me to ask for the Balance Sheet and the Profit and Loss Statement. When I made that request from Mr. Lang then the well dried up and now it has been over 9 weeks and he still has not produce the documents. Evidently I hit a target. You see, it doesn’t matter if I know how to read a document. There are others who can.

I called the City office later that afternoon to ask Mr. Lang if we could make an appointment to discuss these issues and was informed that Mr. Lang left the office and wouldn’t be back till possibly Thursday afternoon. That is the same schedule he had last week. He was out until Thursday afternoon. How do I get a job where I am paid not to be there?

Maybe you should start putting some of these requests in writing. He can string on this verbal thing forever, and obviously intends to.
And maybe it's time to start contacting some state counterparts and associations regarding these performance and failures to perform basic public functions.
What about asking every county counterpart in the state what their policy is regarding requests for public documents -- I would think either Ortonville is out in left field or is ignoring their own policies.
And I really hope people start getting off the sidelines and taking an interest in their leadership. I belonged to a fraternal order once and waited four years for my turn to lead it. The stuff I uncovered would curl your toes. Everyone had their fingers in the till -- the longer things are allowed to go along and people allow themselves to be intimidated, the more brazen the abuses and misuse of power and public funds becomes. Part of citizenship is participation, and part of that is holding elected officials accountable -- any elected official who resents or resists that is not in it for the people.
Yes, I think you've got them hiding something, and everyone should take up the demand to see it, not just you. If they get 25 requests for the same document in one day, they won't be able to blow you off any more. And if people are afraid to ask...how long do they plan to forfeit freedom and self determination?

Subject: Is Mr. David Lang hiding public data? Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:23 am

My requests are in writing.

Mr. Lang informed me last week on Monday that he would have things for me on Friday. I was not in town on Friday and so came in on Monday and asked if there was anything there for me. The office help stated that Mr. Lang was not in and had not left them any instructions about having anything for me.

Today, Friday, 8/21/09, I came into the office around 8:30 a.m. and Mr. Lang was in. He came to the counter with my letters of request in his hand. They were all stapled together. In referencing one of the letters he stated that he would be giving me something in writing soon. He would have something for me on the others "next Friday."

I asked Mr. Lang why he thinks I should believe him. He has repeated that statement for the past 14 weeks.

I asked Mr. Lang what about my request for the Northside Contract. He said he would have to see about getting that done. He said that will have to be hard copy. I informed him that I already knew that and stated so in my request that he provides hard copies because the contract is not on the city computer. I again told him that I have waited 14 weeks for this information and do not see why I should believe him when he keeps saying he will have it soon.

"Well, we will talk about that next Friday."

"We will not talk about that next Friday Mr. Lang. I can guarantee you that we will not talk about that next Friday."

Mr. Lang's face then turned grave and his voice became hard and he said, "Are you threatening me?"

"No, Mr Lang I am not threatening you. I will not be here on Friday. You know there is my schedule to consider too."

"I have waited patiently for 14 weeks for you to comply with State Law and provide pubic data. You would think after 14 weeks you could have done your job."

Advanced Member Number of posts : 124 Age : 55 Registration date : 2009-03-19

Quote :: I respectfully pointed out to Mr. Lang that anyone could take the PDF and print it and scan it back into the computer and alter it if they wanted. Changing the files to PDF is not any more secure than a Word Document.

I would like to respectfully point out that this is simply not true. A truly secure pdf would include a digital signature. This digital signature could be set up to keep you from doing a number of different things to the pdf including printing it.

Even if you could some how print it and/or alter a pdf that was set up to be secure it would be next to impossible to recreate the digital signature from the original pdf into the copy.

I'm by far no expert when it comes to pdf files, but I have probably done more work with pdf files then most people have.

Many people don't understand how to correctly secure a pdf file. I have even found large number of so called secure pdf files on line from large corporations that were not secure and were easily altered.

Just my thoughts...

Advanced Member Number of posts : 124 Age : 55 Registration date : 2009-03-19

I can no longer edit my own post?
Wanted to correct the typo. Smile

Thanks for the info on PDF files. While I can appreciate the need for security in this case it seemed absurd. There is no reason for the city to charge me to have them make all there documents PDF. They contain the originals and that is all they are required to secure. If anyone gets a regular paper copy they can scan it into a computer and alter it if they want to. If they were that fussy about securing documents they would also have to secure the paper copies that are given to the public.

The point was that this appears to me to be another delay tactic and attempt to charge me. Mr. Lang informed me, verbally, on the following Friday, after the city council meeting, that they have determined that it won't be necessary to make the files PDF. It's been another two weeks since that decision and David Lang still has not made the files available even though they have determined that they will not need to make them PDF.

The edit is fixed. Try again.

Subject: Is there a shredder in the EDA office? Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:14 am

This is now two months since the last post and Mr. Lang has still not produced the documents. In order to save me continual wasted trips to the city office I left a phone number there and asked them to call me when the documents were ready. No response.

I called the city office on Oct 29, one week before the election, and spoke to Mr. Lang. He informed me that he had the flash drive of the EDA minutes ready for me to pick up and that I could come in anytime to get them. My schedule was full and I was not able to make it in right then and so arranged to have them picked up the following week. On Thursday 11/6, after the election, I was informed that the documents were not ready yet. I went into the city office on Friday 11/6 and asked Mr. Lang about the documents and he informed me that he has been "very" busy and he "hoped" to have them for me on Monday. Something about a letter that he needs to write to go with it.

It is peculiar that Mr. Lang stated the documents were ready before the election and then after the election they are not ready. Mr. Lang has "hoped" to have this information for me going on five months now. While he keeps "hoping" to have the EDA minutes available he says nothing about the EDA Balance Sheet or the Profit and Loss Statement or the other documents that have yet to have been produced. How long should it take for public data to be produced?

This is changing the subject but I was curious with all the new office machines they got. Does anyone know if there is a shredder in the EDA office? scratch

Subject: $150.00 for what? Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:00 am

During my phone conversation with Mr. Lang above I reminded him to email me when the documents were ready. As we came into the Thanksgiving weekend there was no contact from Mr. Lang. I called the week after Thanksgiving and Mr. Lang informed me that the documents had been sitting there for two weeks. Perhaps they would not have been sitting there for two weeks if Mr. Lang had done as I asked and let me know they were there. I have on numerous occasions reminded Mr. Lang to call and leave a message or email me when he has something for me. Why didn't he extend the curtsey of informing me that he had something ready? Every other time he told me he "hoped" to have "something for me" next week he never did.

What is interesting is that Mr. Lang has now charged $150.00 for the electronic data. An amazing figure. More will be posted on this subject after I finish reviewing the data.

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