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PostSubject: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Fri May 15, 2009 5:49 pm

ORTONVILLE CITY COUNCIL MEETING AGENDA
REGULAR MEETING
CITY OFFICE MEETING ROOM
315 Madison Avenue, Ortonville, MN
Monday, May 18, 2009
7:00 P. M.
The City Council is provided background information for agenda items in advance by City staff and appointed commissions, committees and boards. Decisions are based on this information, as well as City policy and practices, input from constituents and a Council Member’s personal judgment. If you have comments, questions or information that has not been presented or discussed regarding an agenda item, please stand up to be recognized by the Mayor during the “Citizens to be Heard” item on the agenda. Please state your name and address for the record.
1. Call to Order and Roll Call
2. Agenda Amendments
3. City Attorney Reports & Recommendations
a. Second Reading of Ordinance 09-06, An Ordinance Amending Chapter 31.06 of the Administrative Code Pertaining to the Creation, Powers and Duties of the Health Care Board. Motion to Approve.
b. Resolution Adopting Ordinance No. 09-06 An Ordinance Amending Chapter 31.06 of the Administrative Code Pertaining to the Creation, Powers and Duties of the Health Care Board
c. Update: Acquiring Easements-Sanitary Sewer Forcemain; Utility and Street Improvements-McCloud Street
d. Update: Obtain Easement(s) for Utility Line Repairs Beneath Dusty Lane
4. Bids (If Needed)
5. Public Hearing (If Needed)
a. McCloud Street Forcemain and Street and Utility Improvement Project
6. Recognitions/Presentations/Introductions
a. 2008 Audit Summary-Tom Koop, Larson Allen
b. Infrastructure Engineering Items-Bob Schliemann, Ulteig Engineers
c. OAHS Administrator Rick Ash:
1. Healthcare Board April Minutes
2. OAHS May Report
a. Board Report
b. Medical Staff
c. Healthcare Month
d. Building Project

7. Citizens to be heard
All comments are encouraged and appreciated. We ask that you keep your comments as brief as possible and, if you are here with a group of citizens regarding the same topic, have one representative speak for the group.
a. Kari Dorry-Early Childhood Initiative-Use of City Parks
8. * Consent Agenda
*All items marked with an asterisk (*) are considered to be routine by the City Council and will be acted upon by one motion. There will be no separate discussion of these items unless the Mayor or any Council Member or citizen so requests, in which case the item will be removed from the General Order of Business and considered in its normal sequence on the agenda. The agenda items in bold print need to be acted upon by Council.
a. *Approve Corrected Minutes of City Council Regular Meeting April 6, 2009
b. *Approve Minutes of City Council Workshop Meeting May 4, 2009
c. *Approve Minutes of City Council Regular Meeting May 4, 2009
d. *Approve Ortonville Volunteer Fire Department Application for Exempt Permit for Gambling (Raffle) at Matador
e. *Approve Hiring List and Hourly Wage Rates for 2009 Summer Recreation Employees
f. *Approve Hiring Assistant Pool Directors
g. *Approve Request of OFC Ortonville (Former Jaycees) to Use Foot of Lake Park for Fundraising Circus July 17, 2009
h. *Approve 2009 Liquor License Renewals per List as Presented at Meeting Time
9. Recommendations of Citizen Boards, Committees and Commissions
a. Park Board Recommendation: Install a Fire Hydrant in Central Park (Refer to Utility Committee)
b. Park Board Recommendation: Installation of Playground Equipment at Lakeside Park
c. Park Board Recommendation: Cap 2009 Family Pool Pass Fee at $160.00
d. Police Commission Recommendation: Chief of Police and Hiring of Part-Time Officers
e. Utility Committee Recommendation: School District Heat Exchangers
f. Golf Board Recommendation: Golf Ranger Policing Duties
g. Golf Board Recommendation: Bad Check Collection Policy
h. Golf Board Recommendation: Resolution Approving Payment of Half the Golf Course Website Costs-$60.00 Per Year
10. Reports From Council Committees
11. Unfinished Business
a. City Assessment Policy Revision
12. New Business
a. Approve Expenditures
b. Resolution Approving Plans and Specifications and Ordering Advertisement for Bids- McCloud Street Forcemain and Street and Utility Improvement Project

c. Resolution Accepting Bid for Airport 2009 Taxiway & Apron Project
d. Recreational Fires
e. Approval of Letter of Retirement from Police Chief Curtis Hormann
f. Resolution Approving Renewal of Waste Management Contract
g. Approve MN DNR Water Supply Plan
h. Resolution Appointing Council Member to Fill the Vacancy on the Ortonville City Council
13. City Clerk-Administrator Reports & Recommendations
a. Update: Small Cities Development Grant Program
b. Update: Columbian Hotel
c. Ortonville TIF District Creation and Potential TIF Bond Issue
d. Update: Sanitary Sewer Forcemain Improvements along Big Stone Lake; Street and Utility Improvements on McCloud Street-Public Hearing 7:00 PM-05-18-09
e. Library Steps Grant Update
f. 2009-2010 Local Government Aid Update
g. MRES Bright Energy Solutions Rollout
h. Update: 2009 Taxiway and Apron Proj ect-Ortonville Airport
i. Update: Central Park Erosion Control
j. UMVRD Know Your Region Training
k. 2009 Ortonville Archery Deer Hunt
l. Update: Airport Window Replacement
m. UMVRD Entrepreneur Training Sessions
14. Executive Session
15. Adjournment
Additional Information Contained in Packet
• Airport Board Minutes 04-27-09
• Street Committee Agenda 05-13-09
• MMUA Safety Training Syllabus 05-19-09
• Executive and Finance Committees Agenda 05-21-09
• Statement of Reserves & Cash Accounts 04-30-09
• Park Board Agenda 05-13-09
• Park Board Minutes 05-13-09
POSTING STATEMENT
This agenda was posted for public review in the office of the Clerk-Administrator on May 15, 2009.
Clerk/Administrator Date
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PostSubject: Golf Rangers?   Mon May 18, 2009 11:41 pm

Some highlights of the Ortonville City Council meeting.

The meeting was moved to the Armory because so many people showed up. Most of the people were there because of the curb and gutter proposal for McCloud Street. From the sound of the people who spoke up no one was happy about it. crowd After the spokesman finished his talk and fielded the questions City Attorney Craig Ash got up and showed a map of the area. He stated that evidently they do not have all the easments they need and if anyone has property in the area of the work to be done that has not signed an easment thy need to do that soon. Ash said they would leave some forms on the table for people to pick up. He made a refernce something like they wouldn't want the city to have to go to lawsuit or to sue? I'm not sure what that reference is about. Why would the city instigate a lawsuit for an easment? judge

One kind of got the impression that the city council thought this would be a good idea to put in curb and gutter on McCloud and has been going ahead with the project and now they are required to get public input. Like they couldn't get the peoples input before this? There wasn't a single person at the meeting that said they wanted this. One woman asked Mayor Blair Johnson when they were going to vote on it and Mayor Johnson said that they would decide tonight and added that "The Councils decision is final." So there you have it. What the council says, goes. Now that they have had their legal requirement to allow the public input they can go ahead and do what they want. It wasn't to bad. The council pretty much let the representative from the company who has been doing all the paperwork take the questions (and the heat) while they just sat there and waited for it to get over. whistle

Another surprise was when Mayor Blair Johnson discussed the Golf Board Recommendation. Evidently they want to have someone be a Golf Ranger whose job it would be to go around the golf course and catch people playing golf who haven't paid their fees. This is a real problem. The Golf course looses money when people don't pay. The mayor said the board recommends that anyone caught on the first offense will get carted off to jail. Hey, Mayor Johnson, I have a REAL COOL golf cart that would be PERFECT for the job. See Golf Cart Cop

Mike Dorry had the perfect line. When Mayor Blair Johnson asked Mike's opinion Mike replied, you shouldn't get rid of the police department, sounds like we have some real serious crimes here.

By far the highlight of the evening came at the very end. Kind of like the icing on the cake. The very last item on the agenda was item 12.h Resolution Appointing Council Member to Fill the Vacancy on the Ortonville City Council. It started off with Randleman making a motion to approve and Anderson seconding the motion. Mayor Johnson really wanted to go with it and said it needed to be done. Mayor Johnson said if they won't do it now then later they will have a three to three tie vote. Steve Berkner replied as opposed to a three to two vote now? Steve said that they could all be reasonable and work this out and they were coming up on an election in a few months and they should be careful about what they are doing.

Mike Dorry stated that at the previous council meeting they voted to appoint the new councilman on June 1st and Dorry reminded the council that they just that evening approved those minutes. Steve Berkner was in agreement with Dorry that they should wait until all the council members are there so that they all can be involved in the process. Bob Meyer was absent. Mayor Johnson said that he thought that they should let Cunningham be here when they vote in who takes his place. Dorry and Berkner reminded them that Cunningham couldn't vote anyway on the matter. Mayor Johnson asked Cunningham who he thought was most in alignment with his philosophy. Cunningham said that of all the candidates Dan Oakes was most in alignment with his vision to move the city forward.

Finally Mike Dorry asked, what were they going to do when he and Steve Berkner got up and left and since Cunningham can't vote then they don't have a quorum. Mayor Blair Johnson then asked City Attorney Craig Ash about it. Here is the part that was worth the three hours of sitting there. All eyes turned to City Attorney Craig Ash and he sat there with a blank look on his face for the longest time. Shocked Then he said. "Well, Cunningham is here you have a quorum." Everyone replied to him "No, Cunningham can't vote." Imagine that, the City Council had to explain to the City Attorney that Cunningham couldn't vote and that they didn't have a quorum.

Like I said.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Wed May 20, 2009 6:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: WOW!   Tue May 19, 2009 4:47 pm

As I read your post there is so much misinformation that was apparently provided.

The easement referred to is not a lawsuit. When a governmental entity,city, county state or federal government takes private property, the private owner must be compensated.

To ask for an easement without paying for it violates one's consitutional rights. However, if you are uninformed and voluntarily sign those easements it is considered a gift to the city.

In terms of the bullying by the mayor and insisting on his agenda being followed, the mayor contiues to be out of line. He treats 20 year employees awfully and this is wrong.

In terms of the police department,I am not surprised. He is willing to spend more money policing the golf course so he has a good round of golf.

Perhaps next month when he eliminates the police department he could call the county sheriff to patrol the golf course. Maybe he could call the Bureau of Criminal Affairs. He won't be able to call the police department.

The mayor and Mr. Oakes have an agenda and they have their priorities mixed up.
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Wed May 20, 2009 6:42 am

Mouthpiece, if as you say, people don't have to sign the easements why would City Attorney Craig Ash mention lawsuit? Does he profit by the City instigating a lawsuit? If the City of Ortonville would sue would he make more money? money

I want to be sure I understand you here. Are you saying that if a person does not sign the easement, then the city will come in and take the easement and will pay the person money (the value of the property) for it? If a person does sign the easement then it is like the person giving the land to the city as a gift? Why didn't City Attorney Craig Ash say that at the meeting? Isn't that his job? If I owned land on McCloud Street I would want to know that.

In regards to the meeting and the city replacing Chief Horman they decided to work through the options the the Police Commission recommended. They are going to ask former Police Chief Dinnel to take over for Chief Horman until they replace him. If former Chief Dinnel does not accept this then another option is to ask Sheriff Haukos to run things until they get a new chief. Well, there is the foot in the door.

How do you disband a police department? Piece by piece?

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Thu May 21, 2009 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: I don''t get it.   Wed May 20, 2009 11:20 am

What I find interesting in these posts and letters to the editor is that all the people that seem to have a problem with the city council and their decisions are not even residents of Ortonville and do not pay the taxes. Correct me if I am wrong, but the force behind this sites posters are residents of South Dakota and Milbank. The Chief and his wife are not residents either. (But they expect David Lang to be) I think you forget to respect the job the council members have as taxpayers of Ortonville, as residents and as council leaders. It is their job to look at all the facts and make their decisions based on what they feel is in the best interest of the citizens they serve, not residents of Milbank, or out of town city employees. How is it even legal for a Big Stone City resident to stand up at every meeting and question the council when this person is not even a citizen. That part of the agenda is for "CITIZENS to be heard". The moral is down because the funding is no longer there to fund departments and staff they way the city used to. That is not to blame the council. The facts are that some people do not like change. Change is a fact of life that happens everywhere. I realize it affects the lives of those who may be cut, but face it, cuts and layoffs are happening EVERYWHERE! Times are changing... time to buck up and let council do their job!
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PostSubject: Citizen of Ortonville or Big Stone City?   Wed May 20, 2009 3:12 pm

understood wrote:
What I find interesting in these posts and letters to the editor is that all the people that seem to have a problem with the city council and their decisions are not even residents of Ortonville and do not pay the taxes. Correct me if I am wrong, but the force behind this sites posters are residents of South Dakota and Milbank. The Chief and his wife are not residents either. (But they expect David Lang to be)

I find it interesting that you think that opinions from South Dakota and Milbank are irrelevent because they do not pay taxes in Ortonville. The Chief and his wife are/were residents of MN. Residents of Big Stone City and the surrounding communities do pay taxes in Ortonville. They spend in the area of hundreds of thousands of dollars shopping at the grocery store, gas stations, downtown stores etc. While you may say that there is no tax on food at the grocery store the store does pay taxes on its income and payroll taxes are also paid. There are also many residents of Big Stone City and Milbank who work in Ortonville and pay payroll taxes. What do you suppose would happen if residents of Big Stone City started doing more shopping in Milbank instead of Ortonville. money

Are you trying to divide the communities of Big Stone City, Milbank, and Ortonville? Shame on you. fencing


Are you saying that only residents of Ortonville should be able to speak? Is your heart that small that you only look after your own? Hearts You acknowledge that David Lang is not a resident of Ortonville. Should David Lang be making decisions when he is not a resident of Ortonville? (How much money do you suppose his wife spends in Ortonville? How much of David Lang's income stays in Ortonville?) Chief Horman and his wife live nearby and shop here as do the rest of us. Our money stays local. How about Craig Ash? City Attorney Craig Ash does not live in Ortonville, should he have a voice? Should City Attorney Craig Ash have veto power over the Ortonville City Council when he isn't even a resident of Ortonville? Your additude reminds me of some Ortonvillians who think that Ortonville belongs to them and they can do whatever they want and everyone else just keep quiet. They are an "exclusive club" and don't include "outsiders." talking

understood wrote:
I think you forget to respect the job the council members have as taxpayers of Ortonville, as residents and as council leaders. It is their job to look at all the facts and make their decisions based on what they feel is in the best interest of the citizens they serve, not residents of Milbank, or out of town city employees.

You are wrong when you say I don't respect the council members. I happen to disagree with their opinions. I have seen first hand the decisions they make based on what they feel is in the "best interest of the citizens they serve." At the last meeting there were about 40 or fifty of them and none of them wanted the McCloud project to go through. crowd Their opinions had no effect. Mayor Johnson informed them that the council would decide and their decision was final. So much for "best interest."

Your statement that the Ortonville City Council should not take into consideration "out of town city employees." is alarming. Is that the additude of Ortonvillians that residents of Big Stone City, Odessa, Clinton, Graceville, Milbank and others who are employees are NOTHING? Are city employees working in Ortonville who live in Big Stone City, Odessa, Clinton, Graceville, Milbank and other surrounding towns nothing but slave labor to Ortonvillians? Are you saying they should have no voice?

understood wrote:
How is it even legal for a Big Stone City resident to stand up at every meeting and question the council when this person is not even a citizen. That part of the agenda is for "CITIZENS to be heard."

I don't know to whom you are referring when you say "every meeting." I have stood up for a few meetings and I would have stood up for less if Mr. David Lang would get the minutes correct. For the record I am a citizen. The agenda states "Citizens to be heard." If the Ortonville City Council has an objection to that they can make a resolution. That is not likely because this council is VERY sensitive to precident and there is no precident for this. In any case I wouldn't recommend such a move. no no no

understood wrote:
The moral is down because the funding is no longer there to fund departments and staff they way the city used to. That is not to blame the council. The facts are that some people do not like change. Change is a fact of life that happens everywhere. I realize it affects the lives of those who may be cut, but face it, cuts and layoffs are happening EVERYWHERE! Times are changing... time to buck up and let council do their job!

Here again we disagree. I think moral is down because of leadership. People are confused and discouraged by the bullying tactics of the leadership. The good people of this commuity come from a foundation of hard work and self reliance. When the times are tough people work together and make it through. This present economic downturn is no different. The people can pull through. What is holding them down is the bullying tactics of a few Ortonvillians who want to push an agenda. They take a catch word like "Change" when what they really mean is "Do it my way, there is no highway." They try to assimilate people to follow them with their tactic that anyone who disagrees with them is against "change." borg

They don't want to allow anyone to voice an opinion that is contrary. Some people just happen to think that having a police department is important. Some people happen to think that spending money on a curb and gutter that nobody wants in these hard economic times is not wise. Some people think that the Golf course should cough up the $60.00 for their own website. Why is the City paying for this? The golf course has it's own budget. Why do they get away with asking the city to pay $60.00 for a website? Why can't the golf course just have a webpage on the City of Ortoniville website and they save the whole $120.00? golf

Your post reminds me of the kind of arguments that Artie Arndt used to make. You ought to go talk to him. You seem to speak the same language. jocolor

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Thu May 21, 2009 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: city business   Wed May 20, 2009 3:47 pm

You shopping in Ortonville does not give you the right to advocate for us citizens to pay higher taxes. The current council is only percieved as bullys by people like you that they don't listen to. They have done the research for their decisions and are not likely to take uninformed advise from SD residents to make their final decision. Don't you think there is a good reason for Johnson wanting McCloud street curbed? You assume there is no basis for the decisions being made. For the record, Ash was correct in saying there was a quorum with Cunningham, even if he did abstain from the vote. You make him out to be an idiot. I am quite certain he has far more experience and education in city law than you. The fact that my posts are similar to those of Artie Arndt have no bearing on the the facts that are stated. You simply needd to do more homework before you get on your high horse. read And don't be so easily pursuaded by those that are financially affected by Council decisions. money They scream the loudest haveuheard but usually have their own personal interest ahead of those citizens. I also think you need to spend some time with Randleman and Meyer. You don't seem to pick on them and last I knew their agendas are very similar to that of Johnson, Anderson and Oakes. poker The way local government works is if a majority (4 out of 7) think something is a good idea it happens. I also don't see people on your side of the fence winning elections. cheers If this city wanted things done the Dave Dinnel way, they would have voted him in. But instead they chose Blair Johnson. The citizens have who they want on council. You just don't seem to like them. Sad
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PostSubject: Where are the facts?   Wed May 20, 2009 9:20 pm

Your two posts are deficient in accuracy and you have obviously not been at recent meetings. If you were you I would keep your day job. You are a very poor mind reader.

I am reluctant to respond because you attack and personalize but are a poor listener. To say Meyer and Randleman have the same agenda as your small bowl is saying that these two men can not think on their own. I know both of these men and both of these men will make decisions independently of your opinion. I personally wish you would quit offending Mr. Randleman and Mr. Meyer.

The Mayor has been rude with city employees and picks and chooses how to follow precedent. Legal precedent is important to assist in consistent treatment of citizens and creates predictability for those who become intertwined in city affairs.

To compare David Lang to Curt Hormann is like comparing Brett Favre to Tarvaris Jackson. Mr. Lang is a rookie compared to the honorable service of Mr. Hormann. As Mr. Hormann was willing to protect each and every one of us and even give his life for us, Mr. Lang filed a stipend to receive mileage for a trip he never made.

It is the mentality of a few non-merchants that continue to hurt Ortonville. Do you think your tasteless comment about Big Stone City encourages business? As Ortonville decreases in size and jobs disappear do you think offending people from Big Stone City helps the citizens of Ortonville.

I travel all over this part of the state. We have readers as far east as Willmar and as far west as Aberdeen. I have had people all over this area ask what is wrong with Ortonville? How can a city this size claiming to be a tourist town, treat people, employees and other professionals so rudely?

I may or may not agree with Mr. Meyer or Mr. Randleman but they make an effort to listen to both sides and ask good questions. They are not rude or offensive.

There is a group of councilmen who listen, asks questions and attempt to make sure the people who elected them are given a fair chance to state an opinion. I have not heard this group complain about their neighbors from Big Stone City speaking in the meeting.

I am glad that the mayor has a supporter, but I think you and the mayor are swimming in the same little bowl.
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PostSubject: we''''ll see   Thu May 21, 2009 12:16 am

I guess you will have to wait and see the near future resolutions. I am quite certain you will be surprised by Randleman and Meyer and their position on topics that will be addressed. I have had several conversations with many of the current council members and know where they stand. I am not so sure you could even get the time of day from a few of them. Ortonville is very appreciative of the out of town business it receives, but really could do without the jerks that flash money and expect everyone to worship them and their opinion. Respect is earned not guaranteed. It would be nice if you could pay Lang a little more respect than you have shown. All you can dig up repeatedly is some petty mileage disagreement. The guy brings a 1/2 a million dollars into our town and you pick on him for mileage. We have never had staff do this for Ortonville. I am not hear to say he is gods gift but back off a little bit. It appears to me that your opinion may be formed by the people you are paid to represent. If Lang hired you to fight the police force, would your posts be just the opposite?
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PostSubject: Keep your day job!   Thu May 21, 2009 6:58 am

Keep your day job!

What makes you think I would be surprised about anything? You and I have seldom talked. What gives you the right to guess my motives. Unlike Mr. Lang and yourself I have had significant education in the area of rural economic development. What you claimed as economic development is by definition incorrect.

If money circulates 7 times as most of us in economic development agree in a small community and Mr. Lang did not attempt to get any of the grant money for law enforcement, Mr. Lang has cost the city 3 good paying jobs with over $100,000 in wages that would have circulated in Ortonville. This means he has cost the city $700,000 and you claim a victory because he got $500,000 in no new jobs grants?

I am sorry! My math says this is a loss of over $200,000. There is a saying in economic development. "There are a lot of well meaning people who create substantial harm to their own communities because they do not understand true economic development."

Mr. Lang continues to be deceptive at his job and disrespectful of fellow public servants. His deception with this site and not informing the council of his true motives is a true reflection of the man. The stipend is a second example. His constant attempt to control the polixce department is the third mistake that cost the city thousands of dollars. I suspect that is why there is an investigation pending.

I did not know that all the wealthy people live in Big Stone City and they flash money around? Your way of thinking has already costs merchants a lot of money in Ortonville, may I suggest on this topic you exercise your right to remain silent. Your position is just that of a person who wants to hear himself speaking.

Keep your day job!
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PostSubject: ???   Thu May 21, 2009 11:56 am

Wow, you say spending twice the state average on local law enforcement is economic development! I think you need to keep your day job!

According to the MN State Auditors report Ortonville continues to spend double the state average on law enforcement! No wonder Pawlenty is cutting LGA! According to the report found on the State Auditors website Ortonville spends about $300,000 money money money when the rest of the state with cities that size are spending $150,000. money I don't get it!

In 2006 Ortonville hired a consultant park ranger to review our law enforcement and he stated that most towns our size have 8 hours of coverage per day money compared to the 20 hours per day that Ortonville had. money money money He also stated that Hormanns reports indicated only 3 calls per day on average! How many people does it take to answere 3 calls. The equates to $300 per call! Ouch!

The consultant also identified that Curt Hormann was not reporting to his superior David Lang. handshake He had a real problem with this. He advised that the city look into this. But yet you question why David Lang is overlooking the department. Did you know that it is the administrators job to look at every city department? park ranger

I am not sure wish fish bowl you keep reffering to? Blair Johnson got the majority vote in the last election.
What bowl are you in?

PS My day job is going great! money

KEEP ON POSTING!
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PostSubject: Keep your day job!   Thu May 21, 2009 12:49 pm

I found no such comparison made by the auditors office and in fact I have seen no report from the state auditor claiming that the police department is over-funded. I suspect that the statistics are being interpreted to bend a result. You know what they say about statistics?

Show me concisely where the state auditor said that Ortonville spends too much on police protection. Or am I right? It is your interpretation and comparison that skew the results?

As a person who has studied economic development you take one factor, population, and draw an illogical conclusion. What about tourism? How does that effect the need for additional law enforcement in the summer? What about the populations of nearby communities like Big Stone City and Milbank? What about the lake within the city limits? What about the building of the new power plant? I could go on and on.

Also you failed to address my statistical information. The city with the wages paid is up about $700,000. Economic Development is job creation not playground equipment.

Why did you not answer the question about additional grant money from the federal government?

We have put the entire report of the consultant on the site and I disagree with your interpretation.

As to Mr. Lang controlling the police department perhaps you need to read the Charter. The Police Commission makes recommendations to Mr. Lang. By the way, one thing I know is that Mr. Lang cannot get along with anybody that thinks differently then himself and you and he can blame employee moral on everybody else.

How come you did not comment on my Favre comparison? Hit too close to home?

There were a lot of us who supported Mr. Johnson during the last election, but when the water got dirty most of us are looking forward to changing the water.


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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Thu May 21, 2009 1:14 pm

Give it up, ortonville as a town is crap and going no where
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PostSubject: read   Thu May 21, 2009 2:09 pm

Mouthpiece, I am sure you were not able to find that info on the website. You might have to spend more than 10 minutes on the site, or just understand how the site works. All of this information has been presented at council meetings. Dan Oakes did a lot of the research. Maybe you could give him a call. I am sure he would be willing to share that with you. Numbers don't lie, it is black and white. My question to you is, if you saw these facts would you change your opinion? Your factors used for law enforcement use Big Stone City, which has its own force (are you suggesting we pay for addl coverage for them too? Sheesh), tourism (which I am sure is in other parts of our land of 10,000 lakes), the power plant (which has funding for addl law enforcement which will be givin to Milbank and the county.) Again, I think you have missed many meetings and a lot of information. You are wrong on the police commision, they are in charge of hiring, firing and discipline. The council is in charge of the funding for them and Hormann reports to Lang every monday in the department head meeting. The police commission for several years would meet about once a year if that, how would a body like that possibly manage a department?? They can't and they didn't. Your comparing Jackson and Farve is simply your silly way of putting someone down. If you feel Johnson and Lang are so bad, who do you suggest to fill those positions. You may be the type that is never happy with leadership:( Sad I don't think everyone thinks the water is dirty...just those that are affected financially.
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PostSubject: What''''s wrong?   Thu May 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Answer the question. Where is the great information. MYou have made a lot of allegations but can prove nothing. Now rely on Dan Oakes? By the way, I was at, at least one of the Dan Oakes meetings and I was not persuaded by his use of statistics then as I am not persuaded now. I thought you said the state auditor made findings.

It is time the Ortonville is guided by people who are open-minded and understand real economic development. This close minded leadership has made others think that Ortonville is a sham.

We need to allow those people in our committees and in our government who have knowledge and understand the issues. We need to go out of the box and promote an area instead of isolating Ortonville.

There are a lot of good people here and we need to promote good communications and respect to all. Until this community does that we will continue to reduce in population and the day will come that we do not exist.
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Thu May 21, 2009 3:11 pm

understood wrote:
You shopping in Ortonville does not give you the right to advocate for us citizens to pay higher taxes.

That is so far off base you can't even see it. The only thing I have pointed out was that the Ortonville City Council is spending money outragiously. That does not equate to higher taxes for the citizens of Ortonville.

understood wrote:
The current council is only percieved as bullys by people like you that they don't listen to. They have done the research for their decisions and are not likely to take uninformed advise from SD residents to make their final decision. Don't you think there is a good reason for Johnson wanting McCloud street curbed? You assume there is no basis for the decisions being made.

People see the city council for what they are. All I have done is pulled back the curtain so people can see them. As far as "research" there was no reason given to the public at the meeting except that someone complained that water ran off their property. A single complaint as far as I can see it. The city council offered no explaination only that they discussed it and their decision was final. If they had research why didn't they present it. Why didn't they show the public the "good reason" they had for doing this. It is interesting to note that Mr. Steve Berkner lives there. Is he going to vote?

judge Your attempt to add legitmacy to their actions has failed.

understood wrote:
For the record, Ash was correct in saying there was a quorum with Cunningham, even if he did abstain from the vote. You make him out to be an idiot. I am quite certain he has far more experience and education in city law than you.

You need to learn the difference between knowledge and intelligence.

understood wrote:
The fact that my posts are similar to those of Artie Arndt have no bearing on the the facts that are stated.

I never said they had a bearing. Why are you so sensitive about it? guilty

undertood wrote:
You simply needd to do more homework before you get on your high horse. read And don't be so easily pursuaded by those that are financially affected by Council decisions. money They scream the loudest haveuheard but usually have their own personal interest ahead of those citizens.

Translation: Citizens who are having their taxes increased because of decisions made by the city council for their "best interest" and complain about it are selfish.


understood wrote:
I also think you need to spend some time with Randleman and Meyer. You don't seem to pick on them and last I knew their agendas are very similar to that of Johnson, Anderson and Oakes. poker The way local government works is if a majority (4 out of 7) think something is a good idea it happens.

They can vote anyway they want to. Just make sure the public knows what they are doing.

understood wrote:
I also don't see people on your side of the fence winning elections. cheers If this city wanted things done the Dave Dinnel way, they would have voted him in. But instead they chose Blair Johnson. The citizens have who they want on council. You just don't seem to like them. Sad

I have no like or dislike. There is nothing personal here. As far as Mr. Dinnel and the election goes I only vaguely remember the election. I know that at the time there was some trouble with some of the council members and the Ortonville Police. At the time of the election the impression that I got from the paper was that law enforcement didn't get along with the council and I think Mr. Dinnel was judged on what others had done. I do not believe that the local newspaper covered that well. The Ortonville Independent does send out free newspapers from time to time. They do it to advertize to hopefully increase circulation. There was one free paper that came out with a headline about the mayors family. I thought at the time that was a mean thing to do. To send out free papers plastering that all around the community for people to gossip about. paper One could wonder what the agenda was for the Ortonville Independent?

understood wrote:
In 2006 Ortonville hired a consultant park ranger to review our law enforcement and he stated that most towns our size have 8 hours of coverage per day money compared to the 20 hours per day that Ortonville had. money money money He also stated that Hormanns reports indicated only 3 calls per day on average! How many people does it take to answere 3 calls. The equates to $300 per call! Ouch!

The consultant also identified that Curt Hormann was not reporting to his superior David Lang. handshake He had a real problem with this. He advised that the city look into this. But yet you question why David Lang is overlooking the department. Did you know that it is the administrators job to look at every city department? park ranger

It is very interesting that you have read the report by the consultant. read I had asked for a copy of the report on Feb. 18 and Mr. Lang replied on Feb. 27 that the report was at the city office and I could review it there. Contrary to what Mouthpiece said the entire report is not on this website. Only the final few pages listing the conclusions. I do not consider your interpretation of this report as reliable, considering your propensity for inaccuracy in the above posts and would need to see if for myself. It is interesting that you quote a source that is not easily accessible by the public to check your facts.

Detective So how did you come by this report? Do you have your own copy or did you stand in the office as Mr. Lang offered to me and read it?

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Thu May 21, 2009 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: My integrity is not for sale.   Thu May 21, 2009 3:37 pm

understood wrote:
I guess you will have to wait and see the near future resolutions. I am quite certain you will be surprised by Randleman and Meyer and their position on topics that will be addressed.

It is still a free country and they can vote anyway they want and the people can have an opinion.

understood wrote:
I have had several conversations with many of the current council members and know where they stand. I am not so sure you could even get the time of day from a few of them.

Not a problem, I have a watch.

understood wrote:
Ortonville is very appreciative of the out of town business it receives, but really could do without the jerks that flash money and expect everyone to worship them and their opinion.

Translation: Even though we don't want your opinion we still want your money.

understood wrote:
Respect is earned not guaranteed. It would be nice if you could pay Lang a little more respect than you have shown. All you can dig up repeatedly is some petty mileage disagreement. The guy brings a 1/2 a million dollars into our town and you pick on him for mileage. We have never had staff do this for Ortonville. I am not hear to say he is gods gift but back off a little bit.

Exactly. I am respectful of Mr. Lang. Anyone seeing me when I address the city council and go into the Ortonville city office can attest to that. If Mr. Lang is bringing in 1/2 million dollars then what is Vicki Oakes doing? I thought she was doing that?

understood wrote:
It appears to me that your opinion may be formed by the people you are paid to represent. If Lang hired you to fight the police force, would your posts be just the opposite?

What people are you talking about? Who do you think is paying? And for what? I have put in thousands of hours and driven miles upon miles and paid out of my pocket and not recieved any money for what I am doing.

You might not understand this....perhaps you are not used to dealing with honorable people....... but my integrity is not for sale.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Thu May 21, 2009 6:24 pm

I have been watching this cite for a long time and could not take it anymore and had to give my opinion. Ever since Mr. Lang has been here I have not heard one good thing about him from whomever has had the pleasure of doing any city business, just ask anyone on the street you will not have a problem finding anyone to give feedback on this. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" money Where has Mr. Lang brought $500,000. to the City of Ortonville. The last I was told by a councilman was that Mr. Lang was hired because of his grant writing skills and all of the grants that the City of Ortonville has applied for has been written by an outside grant writing firm. Sounds as if once again Mr. Lang has done a great "smoke cover" to the council and when the city gets a grant he makes himself look good for doing it. Embarassed

I have been a resident of Ortonville for approximately 6 yrs now. For as long as I have been here their has been talk of county policing by a "select few" councilman. Their tactics always seem sneaky and almost to the point of back room poker deals. I myself have never needed the police for anything but I like that I see them drive by my house at all different hours and they always wave. One would think with all the "problems" the police department has they would not be out driving around or waving. I have asked this before, WHY DOES THE COUNCIL NOT PUT THIS COUNTY POLICING IDEA TO A VOTE? My comments I keep getting back is that the "select few" do not want this to happen as they know the answer from the people is to keep the police department. Sounds as if they will never let the wound heal just keep digging and digging until you can force everyone to quit.

I was told that back in the days of Char Grossman she ran the city with the assistance of 2 other employees. Now we have how many in the office? Char would take minutes of council meetings all by herself. Now Mr. Lang takes minutes and also has another city employee taking notes as "back-up" top his. Maybe between the two minutes notes he could get the minutes correct so that no one including councilman have to get something corrected from a past meeting on what they said or how the voted on a issue. I see that as money wasted to have two people doing the same thing at the same time.

As far as taxes on the rise I would like to know where "understood" lives as my taxes along with numerous others I have talked to went down this last year. Not a lot but they went down.
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PostSubject: maybe   Thu May 21, 2009 8:32 pm

totallyconfused wrote:
I have been watching this cite for a long time and could not take it anymore and had to give my opinion. Ever since Mr. Lang has been here I have not heard one good thing about him from whomever has had the pleasure of doing any city business, just ask anyone on the street you will not have a problem finding anyone to give feedback on this. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" money Where has Mr. Lang brought $500,000. to the City of Ortonville. The last I was told by a councilman was that Mr. Lang was hired because of his grant writing skills and all of the grants that the City of Ortonville has applied for has been written by an outside grant writing firm. Sounds as if once again Mr. Lang has done a great "smoke cover" to the council and when the city gets a grant he makes himself look good for doing it. Embarassed

I will nort try to convince you that David Lang is the greatest administrator and that everyone likes him. If you read my previous posts you will see I stated he is not gods gift. The $500,000 in grants have been a team effort of Lang, Oakes and DSI grant writing. When a department suceeds like the EDA has, you can't possibly totally discredit the EDA director. Even if he is delegating, he is doing it well because these things never happened in the past.

totallyconfused wrote:
I have been a resident of Ortonville for approximately 6 yrs now. For as long as I have been here their has been talk of county policing by a "select few" councilman. Their tactics always seem sneaky and almost to the point of back room poker deals.
C'mon, nothing has been sneaky...it has all been discussed and presented at council.

totallyconfused wrote:
I myself have never needed the police for anything but I like that I see them drive by my house at all different hours and they always wave. One would think with all the "problems" the police department has they would not be out driving around or waving. I have asked this before, WHY DOES THE COUNCIL NOT PUT THIS COUNTY POLICING IDEA TO A VOTE?

It takes several hours and much research to fully understand this issue and the financial implications. Its weather or not to have a department. That is the most decieved approach. The question is..."how can we best provide law enforcement for the least money" You might still get the smile and wave even under county policing. The citizens cannot possibly vote on issues that take so much time and research, that is why they elect people, to make those decisions. Meyer and Randleman have admitted that when they first got on council they were against the idea of county policing, but now that they know the real facts they have changed their mind. Ask them.

totallyconfused wrote:
My comments I keep getting back is that the "select few" do not want this to happen as they know the answer from the people is to keep the police department. Sounds as if they will never let the wound heal just keep digging and digging until you can force everyone to quit.

If they feel it is the right thing to do, they will continue to look into it. The two councilmembers "Oakes and Arndt" were previously blamed for all the police issues....so they got off council and the new ones saw things the same way. Now who is the problem?

totallyconfused wrote:
I was told that back in the days of Char Grossman she ran the city with the assistance of 2 other employees. Now we have how many in the office? Char would take minutes of council meetings all by herself. Now Mr. Lang takes minutes and also has another city employee taking notes as "back-up" top his. Maybe between the two minutes notes he could get the minutes correct so that no one including councilman have to get something corrected from a past meeting on what they said or how the voted on a issue. I see that as money wasted to have two people doing the same thing at the same time.

Your arguement here is valid and should be looked at. Char was good at the things she did as well too. But we were not moving forward, we did not have discipline within the city employees, we did not have $500,000 in grants and opportunities. When it comes to these positions, you get what you pay for in most cases. I think Lang and MANY areas of the city have room for improvement. Don't we all. But it does no good to throw rocks at these people. In their minds they are trying. Lang is responsible for 19 departments and over 20 employees. Show me one other entity that does that with less staff. I think Ortonville will have a difficult time getting a great administrator in town if they were to fire Lang. With the uncertainties in LGA and the fact that Ortonville pay tops out around $63,000 for an admin, it will be tough. Benson pays $80,000 I believe. Madison has struggled to get anybody interested. You will never get a perfect Administrator.

totallyconfused wrote:
As far as taxes on the rise I would like to know where "understood" lives as my taxes along with numerous others I have talked to went down this last year. Not a lot but they went down.

I do live in the city of Ortonville. The taxes the last I checked we were in the 87th percentile. This means out of 100 towns, 86 have a cheaper rate on taxes. It would be nice to aim for 50%.


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Separated the quotes from the responses.)
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PostSubject: Trust me I''''m from the government.   Thu May 21, 2009 11:11 pm

understood wrote:
It takes several hours and much research to fully understand this issue and the financial implications.

Translation: You are to ignorant to understand so just let me do your thinking for you. You can trust me, I'm from the government. Suspect

understood wrote:
Its weather or not to have a department. That is the most decieved approach. The question is..."how can we best provide law enforcement for the least money" You might still get the smile and wave even under county policing.

Any "research" that takes several hours can be broken down into a report and presented to the public. The fact that the city council has not done that may imply that they have other motives. Most of your arguments include money. You accuse others of being motivated by money and then brag about how much money the EDA has and how cheap you want to get police protection for. Your motivation is clear. money

understood wrote:
The citizens cannot possibly vote on issues that take so much time and research, that is why they elect people, to make those decisions. Meyer and Randleman have admitted that when they first got on council they were against the idea of county policing, but now that they know the real facts they have changed their mind. Ask them
.

As far as Meyer and Randleman seeing the "real facts" are you implying that Meyer and Randleman are more intelligent that the rest of the citizens of Ortonville. If they can be convinced then they should be able to present the same information they saw to cause them to change their minds to the public and let the public also have a chance to change their minds.

understood wrote:
If they feel it is the right thing to do, they will continue to look into it. The two councilmembers "Oakes and Arndt" were previously blamed for all the police issues....so they got off council and the new ones saw things the same way. Now who is the problem?

I would have no way of knowing what Meyer and Randleman were thinking before they were elected. No

You may be surprised to hear that sometimes politicians run for office under false colors. Shocking! Shocked

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Fri May 22, 2009 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Fri May 22, 2009 4:47 am

I keep wanting to hear both sides to issues, and once again I am disappointed. It seems interesting that 'the other side' of the Ortonville gov't posts always seem to rely on personal attack (of mostly Lady Hawk, but also mouthpiece) and vague generalities that these are good people doing good things (and besides, as they point out...they got elected!).
The repeated claim in this string that it's too comlicated, and the city folks understand it all better is not only patronizing, it's insulting. People are too stupid to understand these things, so they elect smart people to handle it for them?
If Carl Sagan can break down the universe into simple sentences for people, why is it beyond the realm of possibility that these selfless public servants should be able to give a few details in this 'complicated' situation of governing an entire small town?
I have now heard the "there are good reasons for this" claim so many times that I think only a very dull person could not conclude that THEY DON'T WANT ANYONE TO KNOW THESE VERY GOOD REASONS. That's called an agenda. And the fact that they feel like they can't REVEAL it tells me they are not public servants who serve, but people who feel they have the right, by power of their office, to do what THEY think best for people....who are either too stupid (or too smart) to follow their goals and tactics in the GRAND SCHEME.
I've seen enough now, and read enough now to be inclined to acknowledge the fact that the form of governance going on is basically, "Shut up, we're in charge and we know what's best," rather than, "It's your town, how can answer your questions? Here, let me show you how we came to that conclusion."
Very sad.
Personal attacks and vague assertions of good guys doing a good job. Boy, if that doesn't lay out where this thing is, I don't know what will.
I'm so disappointed. I wonder how long people will let this go on.
Those doing the railroading could get run out on the same rails. People are smart -- it could happen.
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PostSubject: I give up   Fri May 22, 2009 10:42 am

I give up. I think you who do the complaining should run for office. An election is coming. If there are so many people that think these guys are complete idiots as you have portrayed...then there should be about 20 names on the ballot this fall from "all the people you have talked to". Lady Hawk, you ask why the research has not been givin at the council meeting. Where have you been. Several pages of research over the last 7 years have been revealed. As I have said several times, let these people do there job. You are the type of people that would stand up at a baseball game and swear at the ump for a bad call and then sit down and tell all of your friends how right you were. The biggest problem between council and a citizen is the citizen decides if they want something or not. Of course everyone wants everything! Council will always have a different view on things because they have to balance the budget. It is good for citizens to give their input. It also seems that about 5% of the people scream the loudest. If 5 people show up and say "don't cut the police" does this mean council should just do that? Even if 20 people came to the meeting that is 1% of the population. I have almost never seen a citizen say, cut this or cut that. Many citizens want it all, and with many social security incomes in Ortonville we can't afford to have it all. Until you have reviewed the budget in its entirety, how can you have a good feel for how the city should plan its finances? They were voted in to do their job, let them.
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Fri May 22, 2009 11:27 am

Understood
If there's one thing NOT going on here, it's you understanding.
I happen to know firsthand that the people you say would shout at the umpire -- including me -- are actually the people who would turn to the offenders and ask them to be more sportsmanlike. They are people who SPEAK UP and who ASSERT THEMSELVES.
The sad thing is that I don't think these threads would be going on if the city officials would do what a civic leader should do -- simply, ENGAGE with the citizens. "Let them do their job" means shut up and take it.
It is unfortunate that you are unfamiliar with the breed you are dealing with here -- these are caring, involved citizens, TRYING to participate in their governance, but being marginalized and pushed aside, maligned and mistreated.
I did federal government public affairs for 29 years ... it is quite obvious these people have no sense of accountability to the people asking them legitimate questions. Whether one or five or 500 show up at a meeting, they are entitled to be heard and to be welcomed and to participate in DISCUSSION of governance. That doesn't seem to happen. Lady Hawk didn't show up at her first meeting loaded for bear....she was frustrated after months of being blown off. First thing I'd have done is set up a meeting with her and develop a relationship. Good relationships don't mean everyone agrees, it means they respect each other and they HEAR one another. If necessary, I'd have arranged a town hall meeting to let folks be heard. How many would show up on this issue of the police dept, for example? We'll never know because they are deftly blown off at regular meetings, and there is no one interested in listening outside that hard forum.
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PostSubject: read   Fri May 22, 2009 12:37 pm

Here is the definition of citizen that I found on yahoo search:

1: an inhabitant of a city or town ; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman

How do you or Lady Hawk fit that definition? Or the Chiefs wife? I haven't seen many citizens (per definition) standing up. I also see my last post fell on deaf ears. How can one make an educated opinion without a complete understanding of the city finance? I want it, I want it, I want it! That is what you here from a 2 year old. An adult could have a more professional approach. It would be nice if I could here debates about the facts of law enforcement, instead of I want it, I want it, I want it. Until I hear some real good facts that go against what a majority of the council may want, your 2 year old approach won't change my mind. Lets not forget, you are paid to represent them..duh, maybe a bias opinion???? Ya, think???
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PostSubject: This is how we do it in Ortonville from understood!   Fri May 22, 2009 12:50 pm

This is how we do it in Ortonville from understood!

Both of us represent a information site attempting to inform the citizens of the real facts surrounding what we perceive to be corruption in government. The role of the press is to address this issue.

There is nothing I could write that would convince you of your stubborn and inarticulate position. It does not surprise me that you rely on yahoo as your legal definition of "citizen". Here is a more educated and legal definition, And every white man, born or naturalized in any other State, is such a citizen of such other State as to be entitled, in this State, to all the civil rights of citizenship, and by residence and other qualifications to all the political rights.

You see your definition of citizen was used when slaves attempted to cross into Union states. It does not surprise me you would rely on an outdated and racist definition to attempt to prove your point.

However I can thank God that other government agencies such as Big Stone City, SD are more open-minded than you.

Just last month Donnette Herberg on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce asked for money at their meeting and not only was she allowed to speak, they voted to give her the money.

Thank-you Mayor Wik and the entire Big Stone City council for rising to a higher level of government and promoting the idea of listening to all people whether residents or not.

I suspect that understood and the people who support this position think that only citizens should speak at a city council meeting would also discourage disabled veterans from speaking at their meeting if they were from out of town, or a minority from out of town or a person of a different religion from out of town.

Keep up the good work Big Stone City.


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