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 Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?

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mouthpiece
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PostSubject: Keep your day job   Mon May 25, 2009 2:41 pm

Understood, you are not debating facts. You have none. What about the study and since when do you dictate who Sheriff Haukos will hire especially after you just dumped your problems on the county. Maybe they will hire and maybe they won't. If you left it in the city then you can control who is hired.

Understood, you first claimed that anyone from out of the city of Ortonville should not be allowed to speak. Yet we allowed you to speak in our forums. Then you said, we should look at Dan Oakes material and then change our mind. In other words you are saying, “we can speak when we agree with you.” What a hypocrite?

Dan Oakes has threatened me. Why would I give him the time of day? From the appearance in this thread, the general consensus is that you are the one out of line. You are no different than Oakes.

Are you not listening? Lady Hawk asked a question? You still have not answered. I asked a question, you have not answered. When you cut $150,000 and eliminate jobs and you have to spend $150,000 to create new jobs, how much have you saved? The simple answer is -0-.

In this thread you have referred to Mr. Dorry and his followers as being stupid. You say you can not determine what the savings are until the department is eliminated. That makes no sense at all and is totally illogical.

You are offended by my position because you are unable to refute it. In fact, a neutral, unbiased study conducted by a professional, whose job it is to conduct studies and make recommendations, which was familiar with the formula in place, said to keep the police force. I support this finding.

What I do not support are people who go to a web site and read into statistics that are not there because they have an agenda. What I do not support are people who are so opinionated that they can not see both sides to an issue. What I do not support are aggressive people who threaten others. What I do not support are people who believe that the voters are stupid. What I do not support are people that will give their wives a job and ask to have their wife treated politely and then they treat other city employees like dirt.

Perhaps you did not hear me. I have already heard the Dan Oakes speech with statistics. In Dan’s business and your business having a three ring binder or two is a lot of stuff. In my business we often times have three boxes of facts.

It does not surprise me that the Mayor wants to appoint Mr. Oakes. As I have gone to other people in the area, Mr. Oakes has no boundaries and is at best impolite. His idea of winning an argument, like yours is shouting and yelling at people who disagree with him and if that does not work then he will argue, you are not a citizen and should not speak. That is unless you agree with him. What a hypocrite?
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PostSubject: -   Mon May 25, 2009 2:57 pm

Exactly how did Dan Oakes threaten you, I would like to see your proof of this. Who are you reffering to getting their a wife a job? You are a word twister. I have heard from family members of you that you constrantly twist words to see things in your own light. No one has threatened you, no one has yelled at you. I will see to it that the facts are posted before you even if you don't want to see them. You can look the other way if you would like. You can't just say, I don't like his facts. Thats just plain lazy. I have answered your and Lady Hawks questions several times. You just need to read the posts.
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PostSubject: Lets get some things straight   Mon May 25, 2009 4:03 pm

[/quote]
mouthpiece wrote:
Understood, you are not debating facts. You have none. What about the study and since when do you dictate who Sheriff Haukos will hire especially after you just dumped your problems on the county. Maybe they will hire and maybe they won't. If you left it in the city then you can control who is hired.

Understood, you first claimed that anyone from out of the city of Ortonville should not be allowed to speak. Yet we allowed you to speak in our forums. Then you said, we should look at Dan Oakes material and then change our mind. In other words you are saying, “we can speak when we agree with you.” What a hypocrite?

Dan Oakes has threatened me. Why would I give him the time of day? From the appearance in this thread, the general consensus is that you are the one out of line. You are no different than Oakes.

Are you not listening? Lady Hawk asked a question? You still have not answered. I asked a question, you have not answered. When you cut $150,000 and eliminate jobs and you have to spend $150,000 to create new jobs, how much have you saved? The simple answer is -0-.

In this thread you have referred to Mr. Dorry and his followers as being stupid. You say you can not determine what the savings are until the department is eliminated. That makes no sense at all and is totally illogical.

You are offended by my position because you are unable to refute it. In fact, a neutral, unbiased study conducted by a professional, whose job it is to conduct studies and make recommendations, which was familiar with the formula in place, said to keep the police force. I support this finding.

What I do not support are people who go to a web site and read into statistics that are not there because they have an agenda. What I do not support are people who are so opinionated that they can not see both sides to an issue. What I do not support are aggressive people who threaten others. What I do not support are people who believe that the voters are stupid. What I do not support are people that will give their wives a job and ask to have their wife treated politely and then they treat other city employees like dirt.

Perhaps you did not hear me. I have already heard the Dan Oakes speech with statistics. In Dan’s business and your business having a three ring binder or two is a lot of stuff. In my business we often times have three boxes of facts.

It does not surprise me that the Mayor wants to appoint Mr. Oakes. As I have gone to other people in the area, Mr. Oakes has no boundaries and is at best impolite. His idea of winning an argument, like yours is shouting and yelling at people who disagree with him and if that does not work then he will argue, you are not a citizen and should not speak. That is unless you agree with him. What a hypocrite?

Lets not assume what Mr. Haukos opinion is on this issue. Unless he has said something in a public statement I do not believe you. To say the Sheriff is not interested in providing law enforcement when this is his job by law is pretty stupid.

The fact of who the Sheriffs dept. would hire is up to them. If he chooses an existing officer, great! If not, there is probably a reason.

Lets talk Math...if you are spending $350,000 a year and then have it lowered to $200,000 a year that is $150,000 per year savings or 1.5 million over 10 years. Pretty simple math really.

You are wrong on the professionals advise. I don't think you were there that day either. He said if all you want to do is simply save money, cut your hours of protection down to 8 hours per day like other towns this size. The council wanted to keep good coverage so they only went down to 16 hours per day. Do you want to go with the expert opinion??? Again, it would be cheaper to stay at 20 hours per day with the county.

When did you hear the Dan Oakes speech? I think that is a lie! When did you and Dan Oakes sit down? You have not seen the information. I can certainly tell by your lack of facts in your posts that you have not seen it. I would like to see your boxes of information. What information do you have? Can I see it. I do have an open mind, I would love to see your information. I guessing your box is empty. Do you go to trial with an empty box?

You say you do not support me, and I am OK with that. But, when you say people that can not look at both sides...when have you? You always say there are threats...who has threatened? Lets not throw around big words. I never said the locals were stupid, I said they do not have all the hours of research and information that the council has to make an educated opinion. Why have a council if the citizens are going to all take 10-20 hours per week and look at every decision the council makes. You might as well have all 2000 on the council. My guess is most people respect their elected officials to do their homework and make the right decisions and if they feel strongly about something they let them know.

My intent on getting you educated on the law enforcement issue is so that you don't continue to hurt our town by advocating for services the taxpayers cannot afford based on information that is not true. I am not basing my offers to show you information on weather I like you or not. If you are threatened and scared of Oakes as you have posted above, we could maybe have an officer on sight to protect you, most weekdays there are about 5 on duty at any one time. I know Dan is big and tough and pounds people all the time, but with an officer present maybe he won't pick on you.

You constantly refer to Lang, Arndt & Oakes as yelling, screaming and bullying. What a flat out lie! Show me that meeting, they are all recorded, I have never seen any of these 3 even raise their voice at a meeting. Prove this fact that you have posted!
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totallyconfused
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Mon May 25, 2009 5:40 pm

He said if all you want to do is simply save money, cut your hours of protection down to 8 hours per day like other towns this size.


Why would Ortonville want to cut the police department to only 8 hours a day? Just because someone came in and did a STUDY and was paid to do that said? Pay me to do another STUDY and see if it is consitant to the first one. Anyone can make numbers tell someone what they want to say.

Has anyone looked into what other cities around our area do for their police........I'm sure that Appleton, Wheaton and Madison do not have ony 8 hours of police due to the size of their towns
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PostSubject: OK   Mon May 25, 2009 9:36 pm

totallyconfused wrote:
He said if all you want to do is simply save money, cut your hours of protection down to 8 hours per day like other towns this size.


Why would Ortonville want to cut the police department to only 8 hours a day? Just because someone came in and did a STUDY and was paid to do that said? Pay me to do another STUDY and see if it is consitant to the first one. Anyone can make numbers tell someone what they want to say.

Has anyone looked into what other cities around our area do for their police........I'm sure that Appleton, Wheaton and Madison do not have ony 8 hours of police due to the size of their towns

So what you are saying is:
Artie Arndt
Dan Oakes
the consultant
the state auditors report
Blair Johnson
Nick Anderson
John Cunningham
Bob Meyer
David Lang
all the cities in MN that contract for services
the league of minnesota cities

All are stupid and totally don't get it! Please offer some factual information to support your opinion. You can't just discredit all these sources with no factual information to back it up. The only thing you have against this is a personal attack. That really helps.
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Lady Hawk
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PostSubject: Would you buy a home without knowing the cost?   Mon May 25, 2009 10:16 pm

First of all to understood. Everyone here can do the math. We are not preschoolers. Everyone of us knows that $200,00 is $150,000 less than $350,000

What you do not seem to grasp in our counter reply is that we don't see any connection from the $150,000 savings to the police department. The figures you are giving are hypothetical. One community spent $200,000 and we spend $350,000 if we do what they did we can save that much money. Right? Not necessarily. You would have to duplicate everything they did and have the same system in order to come out with that savings.

Secondly you say that they don't have the actual cost yet.

understood wrote:
An exact figure will not be available until the council votes to proceed
with a contract proposal.

That is not reasonable. Let's put this in a visual. You are looking at a house with a realtor. They say you will save money with this house because it is well insulated, It has new thermal windows, it is close to your work so you don't have to drive and will save thousands of dollars a year. You get all excited and say "I love this house I want to buy it how much does it cost." The realtor replies, "Oh, I can't tell you how much it costs until you sign the papers to buy it." Who in their right mind buys something without knowing the cost?

Anyone knows that first you research to find out what you will need and how much it costs. Even the best laid plans have glitches. How many government projects that started out with a budget stayed there. Usually you hear how costs go up and now the people are committed to a more expensive project than they were told. Look at this city council. They budgeted an $80,000 loss for the golf course. When this website made that public then they dropped it down to $60,000 Like that was supposed to make a difference?

Why would anyone trust a group of people who can't even run a golf course in the black?

All your report says is that someone else does it for this amount of dollars and so we will use those figures. That is not logical and everyone sees through it.

With you everything seems to be money. All your agrument is centered around money. It is all about dollars. Can you give me any other good reason besides money to disband the Ortonville Police Department?

You keep saying that only the leaders can take the time to research all this. How do you know how much time people have, You see some people like to look into things. If you have regular citizens who want to read the report by Dan Oakes what does that hurt?
Then you have many people who can attest to it being a good report. If you have a report that only a few people have seen then credibility comes into question.

You mock Mr. Mike Dorry for having a different opinion. What if I read it and my opinion doesn't change? Will you mock me too? You do not appear to give any credit to people who do not agree with you. That is unfortunate.

understood wrote:
This reminds me of the Mike Dorry approach, don't look at it, because
it might make sense

So what was the downside to this report. In any operation there are things that work and things that don't. What problems did they have when they went to county policing.
Tell the whole story.
Not just the rosy picture you want people to see.

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Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson
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PostSubject: answere   Mon May 25, 2009 11:01 pm

I never said you would dispand the department without exact figures. Actual cost of the contract would be determined when the council by resolution asks the county to put together a contract proposal for 20 hours or whatever they decide. My figures are based on the past negotiation that used several contracts from MN cities that do this and an estimation of actual costs involved and input from the law enforcement and city administrator in Luverne. An estimate of $225,000 was reached but could easily be $25,000 higher or lower. Another advantage of county protection is by having all officers under one roof each officer could specialize in different areas of law enforcement. Their would also be a bigger pool to utilize for staffing, vacations etc. With a less cost of law enforcement the city could actually have more hours of coverage. The question of if it is less money to go with the county has been proven by several MN cities that have already done it. Not one pays more money, they have all saved money and several are glad they went that way. Many towns had several arguements as Ortonville has had, but in the end things worked out fine. This is not an original idea, it happens in a lot of towns. The suggestion of streets, city admin and other dept becoming county wide I have never heard of. We need to look outside the box and see what other towns are doing. The League of Minnesota cities has had this as a suggested way of saving money for several years.
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Tue May 26, 2009 8:59 am

Ah Haa..I think I got it now!

Let's see if I got this right...
Estimated Cost of Ortonville Police Dept= $350,000.
Ortonville disbands police dept and contracts with SO for 200,000, saving the city 150,000.
corrrect?

Now lets use your analogy of the donut shops. Donut Shop A (OPD) and Donut Shop B (SO) would combine. Donut Shop A would then say to Donut Shop B, if you manufacture 3 donuts for us, we would pay you 200,000 for those 3 donuts. Donut Shop B manufactures 3 donuts, giving them wages, benefits, insurances, schooling/trainings, mileage, etc. and buying additional equipment like radios, vehicles, etc costing Donut Shop B $350,000. Now using my simple mind, that would mean it would cost Donut Shop B an additional $150,000 to manufacture those 3 donuts that Donut Shop A contracted for.

Wow, such great business sense! I wonder if the county commisioners can find that $150,000 additional money for the sheriffs office!
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PostSubject: sorry   Tue May 26, 2009 10:43 am

Sorry, you missed it again, you need to go read the info on the other post. Go to the league website and read the contract sample on there. It talks about the city paying the addl expenses for law enforcement. It is repeatedly shown in my research that the cost is around $200,000. Your scenario forgot to factor that the chief from the OPD is gone, so is the building.

Here is what Waconia says:
Why Contract For Policing?
Contract policing allows the city to partner with the County and leverage resources together to share and reduce costs for supervision, administration, training, clerical support, vehicles and equipment. Contracting also facilitates greater communication and coordination creating an efficient, effective and affordable model of policing for your community.

Are they off their rocker? I don't think so. They are a growing town of 10,000 people.
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PostSubject: Are you afraid of the truth?   Tue May 26, 2009 11:38 am

Your analysis and facts are flawed and you are attempting to hide the mistakes by personally attacking people with a different opinion.

I am uninterested at this point your weak-kneed criticisms of others.

You are rude!
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Tue May 26, 2009 12:04 pm

mouthpiece wrote:
Your analysis and facts are flawed and you are attempting to hide the mistakes by personally attacking people with a different opinion.

I am uninterested at this point your weak-kneed criticisms of others.

You are rude!

This is not a debate of being rude. You have offended so many people by your posts on this site I have lost count. You asked for facts, I posted them, now can we please stay on topic. Its not about me, its about the facts. If little Deb does not understand the process, can I show her on the internet where the state describes this. Can I give the facts? Is the only sarcasm on these posts in my posts? I have been attacked by you, little deb and totally confused on this site. Don't throw punches and expect nothing in return. Lets talk about the facts. PLEASE.

I am still waiting for your answere on how/when Dan Oakes threatened you and about what. That is a big acquisation to just throw out there with nothing to back it up. When did this happen? And what council member hired their spouse to work at the city. I am unaware of any. Did they just hire somebody? If you are going to post these things it would be really nice if you could back them up. Please tell us more or we will assume there is no bearing or truth to that.
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PostSubject: Stay on topic   Tue May 26, 2009 12:53 pm

Stay on Topic

Now you attack me again.
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PostSubject: please answere   Tue May 26, 2009 1:06 pm

mouthpiece wrote:
Stay on Topic

Now you attack me again.

I am still waiting for your answere on how/when Dan Oakes threatened you and about what. That is a big acquisation to just throw out there with nothing to back it up. When did this happen? And what council member hired their spouse to work at the city. I am unaware of any. Did they just hire somebody? If you are going to post these things it would be really nice if you could back them up. Please tell us more or we will assume there is no bearing or truth to that.

Is this a fair question?
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PostSubject: spell it right sometime   Tue May 26, 2009 2:37 pm

understood.
No one owes you any answers. You are rude and obnoxious and continuously off topic with
your maliciousness. I hope you stay up all night all week doing more research that
no one cares to read. No one cares what you think because it is clear you
are just a backwoods bully who likes to fight, as you have in the past.
Where are all of your supporters? None here I see...

And your unintelligent spelling of the word answer (answere) REALLY bugs me.
Funny how former forum bully Artie Arndt spelled it the same way!
A stinkweed by any other name is still a stinkweed.

May i suggest that this thread be closed as it has become nothing but a
simple form of entertainment for a simple minded bully - A.A. hunting
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Tue May 26, 2009 2:52 pm

TopGun wrote:
understood.
No one owes you any answers. You are rude and obnoxious and continuously off topic with
your maliciousness. I hope you stay up all night all week doing more research that
no one cares to read. No one cares what you think because it is clear you
are just a backwoods bully who likes to fight, as you have in the past.
Where are all of your supporters? None here I see...

And your unintelligent spelling of the word answer (answere) REALLY bugs me.
Funny how former forum bully Artie Arndt spelled it the same way!
A stinkweed by any other name is still a stinkweed.

May i suggest that this thread be closed as it has become nothing but a
simple form of entertainment for a simple minded bully - A.A. hunting

I am really sorry you feel that way. I am simply asking questions and providing facts. That is what this website is for. If it offends you I am sorry. You say no one wants to read the research I have provided but it has been requested by several for me to show them the facts. They have asked to see the information. If you don't like the information, I am sorry. I do not need others to chime in to legitimize my questions. As you have your observations I am quite certain that your posts look like those of mouthpiece. Not answering questions is no way to resolve disagreements. I am starting to believe that my question will not be answered because it may open another can of worms. What are you hiding? Lets just go back to simple questions and answeres. If you are not interested in participating than you have an option to go to a different thread. Please don't question my character on here than call me a stinkweed. It is rude and disrespectful.

This is from a previous post of yours-
Topgun wrote:
Quote :
I for one am glad to be informed about what goes on in town, and I don't believe bashing the messenger is the way to go. Grow up?...Disrespectful?
Since when is someone reporting on the actions of public servants considered immature and disrespectful?

So before you said you like to be informed and now you say I should not inform you...which is it? I am totally confused. (no pun intended)
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PostSubject: Now I undersand....   Tue May 26, 2009 6:58 pm

Now I understand what Mouthpiece, Lady Hawk, and others who have been trying to get answers about issues in Ortonville have been up against. I for one was asking questions, trying to understand both sides, weighing both pros and cons. After reading the last couple of posts by "understood", I became very distrubed in "understood's" nastiness and bullying when someone disagrees and questions his statistics and research. But when I read, quoted by understood: "I have been attacked by you, little deb and totally confused on this site." , it took me by surprise. I was only asking questions and then stating my preception of those answers and now I'm attacking him??? (WOW!....I didn't know I had that kind of power!)

Someone mentioned that maybe the disbanding of the police department be put up for a vote--maybe that would be one way to go. If not, I hope that Sheriff Haukos and our county commissioners would let the residents outside Ortonville have a feedback about this.

To "understood": Thank you giving answers to my questions but now more than ever I decided that disbanding OPD would be very disasterous for Ortonville.

Thank you to the people like mouthpiece, lady hawk, totallyconfused, etc who questions the actions of government, and by making the public aware of those actions--isn't this is what free speech and press is about?
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PostSubject: ?   Tue May 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Little Deb, could you tell me what in the information I provided made you think that county policing would be disasterous. I have begged and begged for facts and all I get is these silly discussions about attacks. That word used pretty loosly around here. If someone disagrees then everyone calls it an attack and bully. For months I hear people asking for facts and now I post them and nobody wants to talk about facts anymore. What details did you see that make you like the concept.
Computer whiz said it best, stop attacking the person that posts the information. I have asked for discussion about facts several times and nobody wants to talk facts.
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PostSubject: You did not have facts!   Tue May 26, 2009 7:54 pm

Mr. Arndt:

What you call facts are nothing more than extrapolations of statistics.

I stand by my saying. Statistics lie and those who rely upon statistics . . .

You will not succeed in bullying Little Deb, topgun or any other.

We are treating you well while we carefully contemplate your fate for committing fraud on this site.

No bullying or intimitation will be tolerated.
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PostSubject: What?   Tue May 26, 2009 10:17 pm

You have made false acquisations and in know way will I feel threatened by them. In fact it is slander. Isn't it true an attorny can lose his license for this? I'll ask Craig Ash.
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PostSubject: Who's kidding whom?   Tue May 26, 2009 10:56 pm

Is this another threat to mouthpiece?
What slander are you talking about?
Did understood register under the name of Artie Arndt?
Was Artie Arndt banned form this site?
Where is the slander?
Were you less than honest with the owners of this site when registering as Ryan?
Did you attempt to cover-up this change of identity by changing your profile information to doznit matter?
It "doznit" look like slander to me. Did someone get caught with their hand in the cookie jar? guilty

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PostSubject: Knowledge is power.   Wed May 27, 2009 11:59 am

First off I would like to apologize for the discomfort of the recent posts of Artie "understood" Arndt. We only allowed him to continue for as long as he did in order for everone to see the truth. We gave him his chance to speak and can see the result for yourself how he used it. We are also identifying who undestood is because he has violated the rules and had been previously banned. When he came back on he had no right to be an unidentified forum member.When he began attacking LittleDeb and totallyconfused I was very concerned and wanted to ban him then but held back in order for him to have his say and to show everyone by his actions how things work by some of the leadership in Ortonville. To LittleDeb and totallyconfused I appreciate your input and steadfastness in the wake of such volital posting. hug Let's summarize what happened.

This thread was started by discussing what happened at the Ortonville City Council Meeting. Arties first post was to belittle the people who didn't live and pay taxes in Ortonville

understood wrote:
What I find interesting in these posts and letters to the editor is that all the people that seem to have a problem with the city council and their decisions are not even residents of Ortonville and do not pay the taxes.Correct me if I am wrong, but the force behind this sites posters are residents of South Dakota and Milbank. The Chief and his wife are not residents either......You shopping in Ortonville does not give you the right to advocate for us citizens to pay higher taxes.....Ortonville is very appreciative of the out of town business it receives, but really could do without the jerks that flash money and expect everyone to worship them and their opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Char Grossman also live outside the limits of Ortonville? People who live their lives in this area are not considered residents? For some people in Ortonville is their heart so small that they see everyone outside their fold as unimportant and anyone inside their fold who doesn't agree with them as an enemy that must be subdued or removed?

For anyone noting the post by RK be advised that the admins have him marked as a griefer and we are watching that situation closely. If RK doesn't behave himself he will find himself in the same boat. RK you may consider this your public warning.

Back to the subject. I decided to find out what this information was that the council was using to base their opinions on. Basically I went fishing. If Mr. Arndt did have positive information on the viability of outsourcing the police department then I would have been interested. I am willing to listen to reason. On the other hand retoric is a poor agrument.

The next thing that happened was that it was admitted that there was research and only the select few in leadership had access to it. People, here is an important truth. Burn this into your heart. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Hence the reason for this forum. For to long knowlege has been held back from the people. The local newspaper and radio have not been forthcoming with information that they should be giving to the public. Kind of like a bottle with a narrow neck. Just a little seeps out at a time. We are more like a gallon jar and everyone can reach in and take from it or put knowledge into it for others to take.

I thought it was very interesting that Artie was willing to show this report to mouthpiece, LittleDeb, and myself after pointing out that people who live outside of Ortonville should not even be participating in Ortonville politics. When I exposed that thought to Artie he gave in and posted some of the information on these forums. You can see the info on Golf Cart Cop below.

On that thread I wanted to read and digest the material and respectfully remained quiet as did mouthpiece in order for people to read it and form their own opinions. For this we were mocked by RK. Then Artie did the same thing he did before he was banned and was all over snapping and nipping at everyone with an occasional patronizing comment. For information on his previous actions go to Yo, Ho, Ho the Chamber, and Watch out for Trolls, and Golf Cart Cop.

Some people may review the posts above and in the information thread that understood started and say that the other people were also at fault. That others were also not behaving appropriately. I see it like this. You have a group of children playing nicely in the playground and a bully comes in and starts wacking some of the kids and pushing them around. It is only natural that some of them will fight back. This is how some bullies operate and some of Arties posts reflect this. Some start with personal digs, and go to insult the intelligence then move on to intimidate and threaten. All the while claiming they are the victim and you are the accuser.

There are those who think mouthpiece is abrasive. If you take a look at the behavior of Artie you can see what we are up against here. Mouthpiece has been in this community for years and seen firsthand the lying, backstabbing, gossiping, sneaking behavior by people in this community against innocent people who are either crushed or pushed out of town. Mouthpiece may be a little abrasive to some people but it takes someone with guts to stand up to bullies. When you are facing a junkyard dog growling and bearing its teeth you want a leveler that can take it on.

(What people need to recognize is that mouthpiece is an admin of this site. I do not control mouthpiece. The reverse is true that mouthpiece does not control Lady Hawk. Or Computerwhiz for that matter. We all respect our differences and allow each one to act on their own conscience. There is no one person controlling this site. We all have an influence. Mouthpiece is a fair minded man who will listen to both sides of an issue. If you talk respectfully to him he will respect you. If you attack him he responds. When mouthpiece talks some people are offended by his manner. Don't assume his motive or intent, just read the words and respond to the message.)

What I basically see here is a thought process by some people in Ortonville who would put down their neighbors and belittle their own people.

understood wrote:
It takes several hours and much research to fully understand this issue and the financial implications. Its weather or not to have a department. That is the most decieved approach. The question is..."how can we best provide law enforcement for the least money" ..... The citizens cannot possibly vote on issues that take so much time and research, that is why they elect people, to make those decisions. Meyer and Randleman have admitted that when they first got on council they were against the idea of county policing, but now that they know the real facts they have changed their mind. Ask them.

Remember KNOWLEDGE IS POWER AND WHO CONTROLS THE KNOWLEDGE CONTROLS THE POWER. This is the type of mentality that can be found in some leadership. That type of mentality can be found anywhere. What matters is does that mentality control. The citizens of Ortonville have a voice in voting. The surrounding area people have a voice in how they spend their money. The public will all decide for themselves what is important to them and what they will do about it.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Lady Hawk on Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:04 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Artie confronts City Council   Wed May 27, 2009 12:00 pm

What we have here is a group of people in power who have an agenda and control the information. One only has to look at Artie Arndt to see an example of what we are dealing with. Artie Arndt came on this website attacking it and broke the rules. He was banned. Artie did not respect the rules. Artie Arndt again broke the rules by sneaking back on The Forums under a fraudulant name of Ryan after he had been banned. Artie again did not respect the rules. Could one draw the conclusion that a person who does not obey the rules does not respect rules? What are rules but law? Could one conclude then that a person who does not respect the rules does not respect the law? Going further could one say that if a person did not respect the law would it surprise them to find that same person trying to eliminate the local law structure?

Does Artie Arndt respect the law?

When Vicki Oakes collaborated with David Lang to rewrite the City of Ortonville website policy in order to keep this website from being linked to the City of Ortonville website and then immediately went to the chamber and convinced them to pull this website from the Chamber in a secret meeting did Vicki Oakes respect the law? Yo,Ho,Ho, the Chamber There was such a thing as "Due Process" where a person is informed of the accusations agianst them and is given the chance to defend themselves. Not according to Vicki Oakes or the Chamber. Vicki made the accusations against me and the Chamber never informed me of them or gave me a chance to defend them. Does Sue Kaercher-Blake, Kim Sykora, MaryAnn Ulrich, Karen Oakes, Artie Arndt, Steve Roggenbuck, Brenda McMahon, Holly Deutch, Lucinda McMahon, Donnette Herberg, and Vicki Oakes, all people who were present at the secret meeting, respect "Due Process"?

Has this kind of behavior happened to other people in the community where accusations are made against them without due process?

If a person does not respect due process can one conclude that a person does not respect the law? Is it any surprise that there are people in this community that want to eliminate the police department?

understood wrote:
I am very optimistic that with the great council we have, they will balance our budget and get Ortonville financially on stable ground.
From p.2 on Information on police cuts.

Artie can be confident as much as he wants. Here is a man speaking who has already admitted that he and Dan Oakes has had trouble with the law and who has shown little respect for rules confident in the council under the leadership of Mayor Blair Johnson to get Ortonville financially on stable ground.

This is the same Mayor who budgeted a loss for the golf course every year with no intention in sight to correct it. This is the same council under the legal direction of Craig Ash talking about interpretation of the law instead of what does the law say? I think his confidence is misplaced.

Let me close with this. We gave Artie a chance to talk to us about his fradulent return to the forums but he declined to see us. That is more than he gave to me when they had the secret chamber meeting.

I am not implying Artie is a bad person. I am only commenting on his actions in these issues. In defense of Artie people should know that he stood up against Mayor Blair Johnson when Mayor Johnson tried to get the council to pass the $5 million dollar bond for Jim Larsen. See: Artie Council minutes See also: Jim Larsen $5 Mil Bond

Mr. Arndt I do appreciate the good things that you have done but don't expect to allow your good deeds to influence people to ignore their conscience.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson
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PostSubject: Re: Only Residents can speak? Are nonresidents welcome?   Thu May 28, 2009 9:06 pm

This thread and INFORMATION ON POLICE CUTS AROUND MINNESOTA are pretty vile, thanks mostly to 'understood.' But his baiting has pulled a few people in -- me included. I was surprised by an earlier response I had to him and realized it wasn't what he said that ticked me off, but the fact that he is baiting.
Baiting is a tactic. It is often used by bullies when they intend to inflict sucker punches while disguising them as "spirited debate." The effect is that they hope people will forget who started the cheap shots and bring the more reasonable person who has been riled down to their own level.
Baiting stops the discussion in favor of inflicting blows and 'winning' at something, since logic and discussion and "real" facts won't get there.
In my experience, someone who uses baiting as a tactic on a regular basis, and is skilled enough to get people where he wants them with its use, is one of the least desirable people that good people and team players should associate with, have in their lives, or waste time in discussion with. This is not a kind of person who makes any contribution to the society in which they slash and hurt.
...It is especially important not to give them any power, for they usually know not how to use it for the good of anyone except themselves and the gunslingers who ride with them.

I recommend the group just pull off this guy and ignore him -- he's bad news. Baiting is one of the lowest of character tactics. Don't take the bait!

Oh -- and I am still waiting for facts that make dumping the police department a reasonable course (golf course?). People are getting better at knowing the difference between attempts at manipulation and genuine, credible, 'speaks for itself' information.

Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting,.......
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PostSubject: The purpose of the police.   Fri May 29, 2009 10:41 am

The purpose of government is to protect the people. It's responsibility is to protect the people from lawlessness. Mr. Arndt has spoken out about wanting to eliminate the local police and have the sheriff take over the protection of Ortonville.

It is interesting that when Mr. Arndt is offended he runs to the police to defend him. policeman

On Wednesday May 27th Big Stone City Police Chief Bob Goergen stopped by around 3:45 p.m. Seems Mr. Artie Arndt called him and complained about his name being on this website. He threw words around about fraud and slander and that there was still freedom of speech. Chief Bob Goergen informed him that it was a civil matter and didn't involve a crime. Chief Goergen was very polite about it and said he asked Artie what he wanted him to do. Artie wanted Big Stone Police Chief Bob Goergen to get me to remove his name from this website Chief Goergen said he would ask.

Big Stone Police Chief Bob Goergen was very polite and informed me of Arties request. I thanked Chief Goergen for taking the time out of his day to run Artie's errand and told him he could tell Artie that there is still freedom of speech and that he could write a letter to the editor.

Mr. Arndt also sent me an email stating that he was going to contact the Sheriffs Department. Evidently Mr. Arndt is confused about the use and purpose of the police. He contacts them on a personal civil matter demanding they do something. One has to wonder if running to the police and threatening litigation is another attempt to bait and intimidate.

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson
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PostSubject: Uneducated South Dakotans?   Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:23 pm

The recent Ortonville City Council Meeting contained the letter below from Mr. Artie Arndt along with some attached documents.


To have a list of cities in MN and rank them according to how much money they spend without taking into consideration the factors surrounding the needs of the individual communities is not sufficient. Mr. Arndt was invited to give the facts that established the concrete evidence why county policing would be beneficial to Ortonville and all he produced was statistics that it works elsewhere and we spend to much money here. Waconia is a community that is 30 minutes away from the Twin Cities. If they put out a call for help they would be deluged with assistance. Ortonville is way out on the outer rim of MN and help is far away. Ortonville will need to consider that if they go to county coverage. Right now they have three officers of their own and can call in the sheriffs office for assistance. If you go to county coverage all you have to work with is the backup. policeman

Mr. Arndts statement about we spend to much on policing AND the ambulance is revealing. Has anyone ever heard Mr. Arndt or anyone on the council discuss how much the ambulance costs? Think about it. The Ambulance has continually ran in the red for years. The purpose of the ambulance is to take people to the hospital. The hospital is operating in the black. Why don't they have the hospital take over the ambulance? That would save some $30 thousand dollars or so a year wouldn't it? money

All the arguments that Artie uses to outsource the police are far more effective for the ambulance. Why pay for two administrators? One for the hospital and one for the ambulance. Why pay for two buildings with the expence of internet, heating, phone, electric, etc.? You pay for the hospital and for the ambulance barn. The hospital operates in the black and the ambulance works with them so why not have the hospital take it over? You don't even have to spend hours of research on the internet to come to that simple conclusion. After all the city owns the hospital and the ambulance. Why is the city taking a loss out of the pockets of the residents when the hospital runs in the black?

Artie wrote:
The funny thing is several of these people don't even live in our state much less our city...my interest in providing you this is to give you facts and figures to base your opinions on rather than uneducated opinions from South Dakota residents

What most alarmed me by Mr. Arndts letter are the above statements. I do not think it is appropriate for a spokesperson and member of the Board of the Big Stone Lake Area Chamber of Commerce to be making such statements about members of the surrounding community. Mr. Arndt has himself gone to the Big Stone City Council and asked for money for the Big Stone Lake Area Chamber. Mr. Tom Scoblic, Ambulance Director, has gone before the Big Stone City Council and informed them that the ambulance will be needing finaincial assistance in the future and could they count on Big Stone City to help. So, when you want money you have no problem coming and asking "uneducated" South Dakotans for it? money

Let me see if I understand this. The City of Ortonville owns the hospital which operates in the black and they also own the ambulance which operates in the red. Instead of putting the ambulance under the hospital they serve they go to Big Stone City and ask them to help pay for the ambulance? Is Big Stone City being asked to subsidize Ortonville? He calls us uneducated?

Mr. Arndt has placed in the Ortonville City permanent documents the statement that South Dakotans are "uneducated." I think that is low. Suspect It makes me think that all you want from us is our money. The more you talk the less I want to spend in Ortonville.



The only "facts" that need to be submitted here Mr. Arndt is the one you continually avoid producing. The "facts" that are needed is for the Sheriff to bring a budget to the City of Ortonville showing them "how much" it will cost the City of Ortonville to have the same coverage they have now if they go to county policing. policeman

Furthermore I would appreciate it if you would not impune the intelligence of residents of South Dakota in the permanent record of the City of Ortonville. No

_________________

Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived;
but as long as the presses can be protected,
we may trust to them for light.
- Thomas Jefferson


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