Ortonville should not eliminate their police department

Ortonville should eliminate their police department.

As the town grows older the town becomes quieter and the new breed of power plant workers will be kind and create no problems for the city.

The Big Stone County Sheriffs Department is moving closer to Kandiyohi County and the trend is to regional centers like Willmar.

Economic Development has been an utter failure spending almost a million dollars in 10 years and have little to show for it. Mr. Nypen himself said that you can see little progress in a videotaped interview on the cities website.

There have been many people leaving the city because of its lack of progress and quite frankly the only thing going for the city is a golf course that is heavily subsidized by the city.

The swimming pool, infrastructure and the city itself is declining rapidly in population.

The federal government is giving money away for police officers but the city is in its poorest financial shape ever and needs jobs. Administrator Lang's response. Cut jobs that would cost the local taxpayers nothing? How much are the taxpayers of Ortonville paying you for this decision?

If we cut the police department this year and move the court administration to Willmar or Morris we can save some additional money. We can cut curb and gutter next year when the budget worsens and we can close down the streets to prevent strangers from entering.

Ortonville has become a ghost town and we need to face the facts.

My vision of Ortonville is Mayor Blair smoking a cigar at the golf course playing golf all by himself. Cunningham and Anderson continue to fantasize about owning their own business and the Oakes' relying on taxpayers to pay for tourism so they have jobs.

It is time for the Independent people and the educated people of the community to stand up to the increasing tax structure that Mayor Blair, Cunningham and Anderson stand for. Not a one of them has had one course in rural development.

Now, Administrator Lang, please justify for me this inconsistency with your position of reductions. How come it is okay to give Ms. Oakes a job because their is a grant involved and when there are available grants for law enforcement you say cut law enforcement? Maybe it is because you do not like to work too hard and you need administrative help so you can stay home more often?

I suspect the city could probably save a few thousand dollars by paying you by the hour and install a time clock.

The surrounding communities are laughing at Ortonville. Imagine a city that places golfing and tourism ahead of law enforcement. Businessmen should consider moving to Big Stone City or perhaps Milbank. They have their priorities correct.

At the recent city council budget meeting the unanimous consensus appeared to be to eliminate the police department by combining it with the county sheriffs office. For those police officers who serve and protect us it seems cruel for them to go from one year to the next wondering if the city council will eliminate their jobs.

After all this isn't the first time that the city council has attempted to do this. I propose a different tack. Since the city council is so adamant to keep the golf course a compromise could be made. Why don't they combine the golf course and the police department. (This should be a real incentive for the city council because the police budget is around $276 thousand. Just think of all the golf balls they could buy with that.)

They could eliminate those gas guzzling patrol cars and put some lights on the roof of golf carts and use them. That would be a tremendous savings in fuel. Golf carts are better because they are silent and the police could sneak up on their suspects easier. Some people would argue that the golf carts are not fast enough but think about it, high speed chases are very dangerous and can hurt innocent people. The police shouldn't be chasing suspects. If the suspected criminal is fleeing the scene then he is leaving and good riddance to him. Since the police wouldn't be catching criminals that would ease the budget by not having to pay for the use of the jail.

A nine iron would work much better than a billy club. It reaches farther so that protects the police from getting to close to the suspect. There is even space in the back of the cart to bring in those perpitrators who are unlucky enough to not own a car for a smooth get-a-way. :pirat: Winter weather may be a problem but issuing the police an extra pair of ear muffs might help.

I am telling you this is a win win for everyone and the police carts look so cute!



You may click the spoiler for more info.

Spoiler:

Now really Lady Hawk, this is MN, it gets cold out and ear muffs would hardly do it.

I would suggest adding some sort of plastic panels to the sides of the cart. Since the engine isn't all that powerful it couldn't have a heater. Maybe consider rigging up a hair dryer for heat.

Now you must consider, with panels on the sides of the cart it could tip over on a windy day (it's light enough though, so I'm sure the cops could tip it back up). People will most likely be inside on cold and windy days anyway, so nothing to worry about there.

I think I understand the tongue-in-cheek of Lady Hawk and Computer Whiz, but their timing is poor to treat the serious budget problem this city {and all others in Minnesota} is facing. Although I may not agree with some of the recommended cut-backs the council is considering, I recognize that they have an extremely tough situation to deal with, not only this year, but also next. I think cooler heads need to prevail, and if we have any honest, meaningful input for the countil then we need to provide them with it. Remember, we're all in this together!

It is nice to see Mustangs support of the the existing council and the decisions they have to make.

I would like council to reconsider its current arrangements for law enforcement. It was brought to my attention this morning that we currently have 28 hours of law enforcement scheduled on Fridays and 10 hours on the weekend within the Ortonvilee Police Department. What in the world happens on Fridays??? It seems pretty peaceful unless I'm missing something. This doesn't even account for all the deputies that are in the area. Where are all the criminals? It was also reported to me that since the last law enforcement cuts the crime rate has decreased. Back to the schedule, if we can get by for 10 hours a day on the weekend, why do we have 28 hours on Friday? Wow, what a waste of money! Just think of all the nice things we could do with that money. Also, how does Big Stone City do so well with 1 officer? They are not that much bigger thanour dying town. An expert hired by the city actually reccommended that we have only 8 hours of coverage a day and we have 28 hours of coverage some days. Yes, law enforcement is a neccesity, but that does not mean you have to spend twice what you really need on it! Why do we need a chief and a sheriff? I think the Sheriff does a great job! Doesn't that seem a little excessive for what some call a "stagnite town"? How about this scenerio. You need a new TV and your budget is tight. For $500 you can get a reasonable TV like everyone else that makes the money you do and has the same size family. Instead you tell your wife, "this is a neccesity!" So you go out and buy a $4500 TV. My point is you can fund a neccesity just like everyone else, because it is a neccesity, doesn't mean you spend thousands extra foolishly.

Artie Arndt wrote:

I would like council to reconsider its current arrangements for law enforcement. It was brought to my attention this morning that we currently have 28 hours of law enforcement scheduled on Fridays and 10 hours on the weekend within the Ortonvilee Police Department. What in the world happens on Fridays??? It seems pretty peaceful unless I'm missing something. This doesn't even account for all the deputies that are in the area. Where are all the criminals? It was also reported to me that since the last law enforcement cuts the crime rate has decreased. Back to the schedule, if we can get by for 10 hours a day on the weekend, why do we have 28 hours on Friday? Wow, what a waste of money! Just think of all the nice things we could do with that money.

How would you know what happens on a Friday night? Do you ride with the police officers? Why don't you go ask them why they have that many hours on Friday night before you go to the council and ask them to reconsider the arrangements when you don't have all the facts? Perhaps if it seems "pretty peaceful" to you it is because the police are working to keep it that way.

Artie Arndt wrote:

Where are all the criminals? It was also reported to me that since the last law enforcement cuts the crime rate has decreased.

This statement by you has been running through my mind for the last few days. Why would the crime rate decrease? I don't think you are advocating a cause and effect that police cause crime and that if we get rid of police then crime goes away. To take two facts, i.e. "law enforcement cuts" and "crime rate decreased" and put the two together stating that the "law enforcement cut caused the decrease in crime" without considering a why for this cause and effect is illogical. Perhaps the decrease in crime could have been because while before there were police on the streets and seeing crime they wrote it up. Now that we have fewer police out there it appeared the crime rate dropped. Is it that crime actually dropped or because crimes weren't being handled because there were fewer police to do it.

Artie Arndt wrote:

Also, how does Big Stone City do so well with 1 officer? They are not that much bigger thanour dying town.

Artie Arndt wrote:

I pride myself in my involvement in the Chamber of Commerce, Walleye Club, Church, youth programs and city committees.

(This quote comes from Ortonville Economic Development )

It is a surprise to have a person who takes pride in his involvement with the Chamber who doesn't even know the population of the city that sits on his border. The population of Big Stone City is 605 people. The population of Ortonville is 1,980 according to the latest figures I have seen. Big Stone City is not "that much bigger" but is more like two thirds smaller than the size of Ortonville. If one accepts that fact, and you seem to think that one cop in Big Stone City is good, then you are accepting that one city cop for 605 people is an acceptable ratio. Therefore with the population of Ortonville being 1,980 people it would be acceptable to have three city cops according to your logic.

Artie Arndt wrote:

An expert hired by the city actually reccommended that we have only 8 hours of coverage a day and we have 28 hours of coverage some days. Yes, law enforcement is a neccesity, but that does not mean you have to spend twice what you really need on it! Why do we need a chief and a sheriff? I think the Sheriff does a great job! Doesn't that seem a little excessive for what some call a "stagnite town"? .

The skills of the Sheriff have not been questioned. Nor to my knowledge has anyone questioned the Police Chiefs skills. You have not made any complaints about the skills of any of the city police and therefore I can only assume that you think that the local police are all competent in their jobs.

Twice in the same post you negatively refer to Ortonville as a "dying town" and a "stagnite town." Sounds like awfully strong words coming from a man who is proud of his position in the Chamber of Commerce and who recently chastised this forum accusing it of making negative comments about Ortonvile. See Trolls. Your post is an example that these Forums are not responsible for the opinions that people post.

The city council has not published how much savings there would be on combining the police department with the Sheriffs department to my knowledge. If anyone has that info please post it so we will know. When this issue came up a few years ago it seems to me the savings talked about was something under fifty thousand dollars. A tidy sum to be sure. The question being how long would you have that savings? Prices usually go up and what is to stop the Sheriffs department coming back in a few years when the contract is up for renewal with a price increase. Where is the savings then?

Why not go for the big savings and just get rid of the police department and save the entire budget? After all the Sheriffs department is supposed to cover the entire county anyway. Ortonville is in that county so it should be covered by the Sheriffs department without having to pay extra and then the City Council could have the "entire police budget" at their disposal.

Artie Arndt wrote:

Wow, what a waste of money! Just think of all the nice things we could do with that money.

Maybe this wasn't such an original idea....

Here is a report from the MN State Auditors website. It appears that Police and ambulance are the highest rank. Out of 440 cities Ortonville Ranks 34 in this area. Fire and General Government (city adminstrator) actually rank very low compared to other towns. Economic Development Ortonville ranks in the bottom 1/3 as well. That is sad. It looks like we need to spend more on the city office staff, fire department and economic development and less on the police dept.

Click here to view the report:
http://www.osa.state.mn.us/Search/CitySearch.aspx
(type in Ortonville in the search for 2007)

This information is found on the Waconia Minnesota website. They brag they are a growing city of 10,000 people and have great economic development. Great information that should also answere totally confused's questions.

Policing in Waconia
The City of Waconia contracts with the Sheriff’s Office to provide policing in the community and meet the public safety needs of its citizens. Contracted services include preventive patrol, traffic and ordinance enforcement and following up on minor crimes. Citizens should call 9-1-1 for any police, fire or medical response from public safety personnel. Citizens may contact the city hall to discuss questions or concerns about the level of police services in Waconia.
What are the Sheriff’s Responsibilities?
By statute, the Sheriff is responsible to “keep and preserve the peace”, “pursue and apprehend felons”, “serve court orders”, “drag for drown bodies” and “search for lost persons”. Additionally, the County Board has authorized the Sheriff to operate a 9-1-1 dispatch center, maintain a jail, and field a patrol unit to meet the basic statutory requirements of responding to emergencies and investigating major crimes.
What are the Cities Responsibilities?
A city has the responsibility to manage the policing issues in its community and the responsibility to furnish police service to handle their calls. In order to meet this responsibility, cities and townships have statutory authority to create their own police department, join a joint powers police department or contract for police services from the Sheriff’s Office.
Why Contract For Policing?
Contract policing allows the city to partner with the County and leverage resources together to share and reduce costs for supervision, administration, training, clerical support, vehicles and equipment. Contracting also facilitates greater communication and coordination creating an efficient, effective and affordable model of policing for your community.

Here is a link to the League of MN cities website which has a link for cooperative arrangements for police protection. It has 20 pages of cities, schools and counties that contract or have arrangements for services.

http://www.lmc.org/page/1/intergovernmental-collaboration.jsp

On the next link you will find a link for a contract between shoreview and Ramsey county. It answeres a lot of questions about how a contract is written and what it all intails:

http://www.lmc.org/page/1/joint-powers.jsp

From Marshall Independent, Marshall MN March 17, 2009

No More Force in Minneota





There isn't much doubt that the city of Minneota will need to look at sustainable budget cuts to cope with reductions in state aid money, city officials said this week. Whether those cuts should include Minneota's police department, however, is still up for debate.

"There's not a lot I can say at this point. I understand some cuts have to be made" in the city's budget, said Minneota Police Chief Eric Johnson. However, he said, that doesn't mean the city has to eliminate police. "Basically, it falls into the hands of community members. People need to speak up."

Minneota Mayor Paul Larson said the city is still looking for feedback on proposed budget cuts brought forward at the Minneota City Council's March 2 meeting. Proposals included freezing city wages, delaying equipment purchases, cuts to the city swimming pool and money budgeted for planting shade trees. Suggestions also included re-organizing or eliminating the police department.

Minneota lost more than $30,000 in LGA funds in December, and is bracing for $170,000 more during the next two years.

"We're at a point where we're going to have to make some major decisions," Larson said of the city budget.

However, he stressed that those decisions haven't been made yet. "It's all very preliminary."

Minneota currently employs two police officers. Larson said net costs for the department are about $137,000 per year. By eliminating one police position or contracting with the Lyon County Sheriff's Department, Larson said the city could save more than $5,000 a month.

Minneota City Council member Tony Esping said he, Larson and Minneota Clerk/Administrator Dan Canton met with city employees, including police, to try and find ways to deal with future LGA cuts. Minneota could opt to reduce budget spending or raise taxes, Esping said.

"At this time, with the economy the way it is now, we didn't think it could be done through taxes," he said.

The cities of Pipestone and Luverne contract with their county sheriff's departments for law enforcement coverage, Larson said. In Lyon County, the cities of Cottonwood, Russell and Ghent also contract with the sheriffs.

Cottonwood City Administrator Greg Isaackson said the city has contracted with the county for law enforcement since 1989. Cottonwood receives 200 patrol hours per month, at an annual fee of $68,500.

"I'd estimate it would cost about twice that much for us to have our own police department," Isaackson said.

Isaackson said contracting with the sheriffs also helps get rid of problems with high employee turnover that can sometimes occur in small towns.

The city of Balaton, meanwhile, has a single police officer supplemented with part-time help during community events. Balaton Clerk/Treasurer Mary Moore said the city's 2009 budget allowed $67,304 for police.

Tracy has a three-member police department, although it is currently leaving a fourth position unfilled to save money, said City Administrator Audrey Koopman. The possibility of contracting with the county sheriffs had been brought up in the past, Koopman said, but "it was not well received." Residents wanted more local law enforcement present.

The Lincoln County Sheriff's Department said none of the cities in Lincoln County contract with the sheriffs for coverage.

But Johnson and Lyon County Sheriff Mark Mather said police department cuts aren't the only option for Minneota, officials said. Mather and Johnson said there are grant funds aimed at hiring recovery available through the Office of Community Oriented Policing Services. The COPS grants provide three years' entry level salary and benefits for approved law enforcement positions. Mather said the grants can apply to new hires, or bring back officers who have been or will be laid off.

There's a lot Minneota could lose by cutting the police department entirely, Johnson said.

"People need to look at the kind of service they'll be getting," he said. Having police in town means faster response times, Johnson said. It also means that officers are more available to attend community and school events, serve as funeral escorts and fulfill other duties.

"We have a very strong presence in the schools. The kids know who we are," Johnson said. Both Minneota officers are also part of the community.

"For me, Minneota is home now. I've invested a lot of time becoming part of the community," Johnson said. "People have developed a rapport with us."

Johnson said community members sometimes feel more comfortable approaching him personally with concerns, on or off duty. It's harder to do that with a deputy sheriff on patrol.

"And there is a certain amount of identity involved with losing a police department. It's kind of like when you lose your own school," Johnson said.

"We have to think strategically. What do we want 10 or 15 years from now?" Johnson said. Once the city police department is gone, it will be hard to bring it back.

Larson said the budget proposals, including cuts to the police force, could help counter LGA cuts expected the next couple of years and set the groundwork for a tighter overall budget in the future.

"We need to look for some things that have some sustainability," Larson said.

Larson and Esping said the Minneota council has taken no action on the budget proposals. Council members are gathering feedback, which will likely be discussed at the council's April 6 meeting.

"We're getting a lot of community feedback," Larson said.

Esping said so far, he had been hearing mixed comments on cutting the police department.

"This one is a big issue," he said. E-mails he had received on the subject were about half in favor, half against police cuts.

Residents can give their thoughts on the budget proposals by contacting the Minneota city office or a council member.

Good Research, and can you beleive that LadyHawk or Mouthpiece havn't commented yet?

Keep your day job

I have chosen not to respond at this time. This should not be a sign of weakness.

Unlike Understood, Oakes and Lang, I want Understood to be read and not try to shout above him or begin with six posts in an attempt to intimidate. In debate we call this a shotgun approach and it usually is unsuccessful. You do not win debates by being loud and obnoxious and attempt to be overwhelming.

I will say, it is always interesting how the thread begins with a persoanl attack on me and a presumption that the facts are overwhelming.

RK, this is not about me or mouthpiece. This is a discussion about eliminating the police department. Some people give knee jerk reactions. I am more thoughtful. I have been reading it. I have been checking it out. I have a life. I have things to do. I am not here to jump everytime you or understood make a post. I may not respond for a few days. So there is no need to make digs at me or anyone else. You had an opportunity just now to comment on the above posts by understood. Instead you chose to make a dig.

understood has stated in the post on A potted plant speaks that there is alot of information and takes time to go through it all. I start reading it and immediately you mock me and mouthpiece.

Do you have a habit of insulting your host? You could have said something like "That is interesting understood I wonder what Lady Hawk and mouthpiece will have to say about it." You could have also said what it was about the reasearch you found interesting. Instead you make a snide dig. Remember that you are a guest here and be respectful.

Understood your intentions are still visible. You had the opportunity to make your post the way you wanted and in the first post you immediately make a negative dig about mouthpiece. There was no good reason to do that. It would have been better for you to have made your comments without making snide rude comments about mouthpiece. Do you also have a habit of insulting your hosts?

Now, for the both of you, this thread is about looking at documentation that understood has to justify eleminating the Ortonville City Police Department. You two better straighten up and fly right

edited comment: Understood edited his post and removed the dig about mouthpiece. Thank you Understood.

As "understood" provided about Ortonville being 34th out of 440 I also looked at towns around us just for a comparison.

Appleton - 24th
Madison - 26th
Benson - 73rd
Wheaton - 122nd

I decided to dig a little further on this and called the Wheaton Police Department. I spoke to the chief and he stated that he has been there for 20 years and his other officers have only been there a few years. This would make sense as your not paying your officers as much as you would if they all had been around for years.

Like everyone likes to do is twist the numbers to make it all look good in their own eyes until someone else can show further numbers to make the whole picture. Once again another Arndt & Oakes smoke cover attempt to give out 10% of the information to twist it in a way to make everyone else think Ortonville is way behind the times.

totallyconfused wrote:

As "understood" provided about Ortonville being 34th out of 440 I also looked at towns around us just for a comparison.

Appleton - 24th
Madison - 26th
Benson - 73rd
Wheaton - 122nd

I decided to dig a little further on this and called the Wheaton Police Department. I spoke to the chief and he stated that he has been there for 20 years and his other officers have only been there a few years. This would make sense as your not paying your officers as much as you would if they all had been around for years.

Like everyone likes to do is twist the numbers to make it all look good in their own eyes until someone else can show further numbers to make the whole picture. Once again another Arndt & Oakes smoke cover attempt to give out 10% of the information to twist it in a way to make everyone else think Ortonville is way behind the times.

You go on a peresonal attack again...why, you don't like the numbers? Sad. I can tell you that Dan Oakes has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I have posted here. Lang doesn't either. If you want to discredit 1 person for this information go after me. Don't try to lump people together in order to discredit those you don't like. If you don't like me, that is fine. Bring it on!
Appleton has $300,000 more tax dollars a year to work with. So your buddy drives a nice car and you have a crappy one...he makes $80,000 a year and you make $50,000. Are you both entitled to the same nice car?

Benson has almost 1400 more people than Ortonville and still fall way down the list according to your numbers.
Madison is high as well, you are right, they probably need to consider getting out of the top 10% as well.
Did you read the rest of the info? I have put a few hours into several pages of facts. I have not changed or played with any numbers. I just provided you with the links and information. Again, is the state Auditor out of whack? Look at Minneota, Waconia, Cottonwood and more. Read the discussions they are having. Read that Cottonwood pays $68,500 per year for 200 hours per month.

To list our neighbors who rank high in expense justifies us being high is like saying you don't have a drinking problem because your neighbors drink too. The fact is we are in the top 10% of spending on Law enforcement and Ambulance. This is a black and white fact that is undisputed. Why can the other 400 towns do it for less? Top 10% is great when we can afford it...but can we afford it?
Mouthpiece, this is not a stotgun approach, it is simply a post of several links and resources about county policing and city budgets. It is as you would call "a box full of inforamation" not "a 3 ring binder". I sure hope you don't critisize me for too much information.
I am sure a few of you will try to shoot holes in it. Go for it. There is some negative in with the positive. There are a few fallbacks, as there is with anything. But you will find repeatedly in the information that county policing is the wave of the future, even for towns up to 10,000 in population.
Please read it with an open mind. I would be more than willing to read your information that you have based your opinion on. Just go ahead and post it below, not my info, youir info. Please just post it below, there is 2 sides to every story, right? Or.....you don't have any info for your opinion?????

Get a Real Job

I am once again offended that you want to personally attack others on this site.

You are attempting to control the outcome.

Let others read different opinions.

Your attempt to control the outcome of this debate is rude.

We know what your opinion is.

mouthpiece wrote:

Get a Real Job

I am once again offended that you want to personally attack others on this site.

You are attempting to control the outcome.

Let others read different opinions.

Your attempt to control the outcome of this debate is rude.

We know what your opinion is.

Attacks are a 2-way street. Could you just please answere my questions in your spare time. Was that nice? You are getting off topic. I just want to talk facts now. I think trying to control an outcome as you have in the past with no documents or facts is rude. You have called several people stupid for their attempts to balance the budget and manage our city. You have begged for the facts. Now we have them, now lets discuss them.

And quit telling me to keep my day job and then telling me to get a job. My job has no bearing on this discussion.

I did not immediately respond to your posts to be polite and let people read it.

I will respond when I think fit.

I am trying to be polite and you attack me again.

This is the way you treat others.

Lady hawk and Mouthpiece only have 2 comebacks "Stick to your day job" or "get a real job" how lame is that.

RK, Lady Hawk has never said anything of the kind on these forums and making comments of that sort is very inappropriate.

Be warned If you continue to spam, troll, flame and grief these forums I will have no problem booting you.


Understood and Mouthpiece, please remember this is a discussion thread, and you had better stop acting like five year old's in the back seat. Keep it on topic.

computerwhiz wrote:

Understood and Mouthpiece, please remember this is a discussion thread, and you had better stop acting like five year old's in the back seat. Keep it on topic.

Just posting facts and asking questions computerwhiz, keep up the good work!