Private Girls basketball Meeting

Here we go again! No support from the school on this girls basketball coaching issue. Private meeting held last night for discussion on the coaching issue. Meeting included 2 board members, a meeting supervisor, girls basketball coach and basketball players. Once again I received a call about this matter, and appreciate the info. The meeting sounded like another well prepared defense of the coach, sure is funny how our children are always set on the back burner. Do people realize what the heck really is going on? Children were allowed to meet to discuss the issues of what is happening, but interrupted and told nothing is going on and to get over it, you need to respect your coach. Here we go again with that respect mumbo gumbo. Yes, of course respect others, but in turn the others need to EARN the respect. Of course the coach still denies having done anything wrong, way to go coach, you sure set a good example of trying to get yourself out of trouble, are sure you don't want to send out another copy and pasted letter of an apology out to the girls apologizing for what you did. It is sad that girls left this meeting, once again in tears and were unable to finish a sentence without interuption. If you called a meeting to clear up the matter, you should enter it with an open mind and not always think someone is out to get one another, but to resolve the matter. It is not the issue of who wants whos job. It is the issue of what the girls are going through. Not all girls are being treated equally here and the crap about no favorites is just a pile of smelling crap. I stand behind the girls who are trying to make a difference. Some of you will never know the truth of what happens behind those closed doors and some of you will turn the other way. Me along with others will continued to be judged and ridiculed for speaking out, but when it comes to getting to the truth, have at me, I can defend myself for I am an adult, not some young girl who will be told JUST GET OVER IT!!!!!!! I respect those who deserve respect not expect it!!! Girls keep your heads up, remember the drama and demeaning is the fuel for this coach to survive.

WOW, coach you are smooth in getting your way and to turn the varsity players against each other in front of two board members and the host. Were was the host in this meeting?
Why not let the girls speak the truth. I can answer that, your scared of the truth getting out. The Administration can't handle the truth. How much more damage can you do? I am very upset for my kids are involved in the mess. You people on the Board need to grow a set of b _ _ _ S, get it together and do you job. Do what you have been elected for. Yes, even if you have to replace a few of your staff starting at the top and working you way down. There are a few on the board that need to be replaced also. It makes me very sad that there are people that do not care about the kids but instead are in it for personal reasons. You need to listen to all that is going on, but not just one side. The two board members that were there should have been seen and NOT heard....... I feel that you wanted to show that you were above the kids. Does this make you feel big? Enough of that. I saw some the the girls after the meeting at the football game with tears still running so I asked what happened. It is true what wiggles said. I talked to some other people about this, they are concerned, but will not get involved. They also had not one good thing to say about administration at the ortonville school.

Bulldog, it is true what I said but the board was quiet, it was girls interupting other girls who wanted to speak. The girls who had something to say were not allowed to finish what they had to say because one of the players against her would not let her. After it was all said and done at the meeting, is when comments were made by adults to the girls telling them to "get over it." My point is once again true, girls who tried to speak up against the coach were rebelled against by the other players, more fuel for the coach, remember she thrives on drama.

What kind of adults would tolerate -- let alone facilitate -- teenagers bashing teenagers at a team meeting? I can only think they see nothing wrong with the shout-downs -- I would shudder to think it was because they were helpless to stop it.
The incidents of this meeting should stand as proof positive that something cruel and oppressive is being allowed and encouraged within that girls basketball setting. There seem to be two kinds of teens involved -- those being bullied and those doing the bullying. The hench work, if you will.
There is something seriously wrong with that picture.
Nothing mature or responsible seems to have occurred -- peer pressure misused is not peer pressure. It tips over into terrible character and vicious intent.
I would remove my child from those adults so fast they'd want to recruit them for the track team. Incredible that people entrusted with our children could have allowed that meeting to degenerate, do nothing to stop it, and to allow it to end with so cruel a resolution. I say "Cowards!" They do not deserve our support.

The sad thing about this whole ordeal, three girls stood up for this ordeal with this coach against the rest of the team. The other three girls who were part of this whole basketball issue, because they decided to go to other schools, were not invited to help support the lonesome 3. To me that is not right, all girls involved with this issue should have been invited to attend and speak, being weak with only three girls and not all six involved, gave the board the chance to shut this issue down. NOT, I will continue to fight for the right of my daughter and the other girls involved with this girls basketball coach. She has gone way beyond what should any adult be aloud to do. She still claims she did nothing, and she will continue to do so when the board keeps things like this meeting from the other 3 girls,who I know want answers. I know my daughter is upset she was not their to support her peers. This is just wrong. One other problem I have, is that the Ortonville school has not taken this in the right matter it should be. Bellingham was not consolidated with Ortonville yet, so why should any of that board be allowed to present Ortonville at these meetings. This ordeal goes back 3 years, way too long if you ask me. Who in their right mind anyway would let this continue, she is guilty, she did wrong and now she needs to be an adult herself and face up to what she has done. Who is anyone to judge these girls, were they there when she degraded and belittled my daughter, the answer is yes, these girls who defend her need to fess up and be the team mates they are to be.

Something that Bulldog said bothered me greatly:
“It is true what wiggles said. I talked to some other people about this, they are concerned, but will not get involved. They also had not one good thing to say about administration at the ortonville school.”

They will not get involved!!!!!!??? I wonder what they would do if they came upon an accident, will they keep on going because they will not get involved???? Then I wonder if this was one of their children being hurt, will they also not get involved??? There are children hurt here and no one wants to get involved!?? This is outrageous! This saddens me but doesn’t surprise me that this happening.
I no longer have children attending Ortonville school (thank goodness!), my thoughts are with you wiggles and your family and to the other families who have been hurt by this. I wish other parents would stand up because someday this is going to happen to their children (maybe not this issue), then what will they do? I will never forget when one of my children came home and told me a school administrator told another student in school, “you will never amount to anything, you’re better off putting a gun to their head and pull the trigger.” I’m sorry if this offended anyone but how do you think that student felt? To this day it still affects my children what happened in Ortonville school. I wish I would of spoke up more but this is the mindset of the school administration that we had to deal with and I see it still hasn’t changed. I see that the school administration still allow bullying among students and bully the parents when they speak up. It's too bad they don't follow their own bullying policy.
It’s hard to believe that this coach still wants to coach with all the controversy going on. How can this be good for the basketball team or school spirit?
I applaud you and others for speaking up and giving support to your girls. They are learning from you that it's okay to stand up to something you believe in.

This appears to be business as usual for Ortonville. I have experienced it myself personally. You have a "private" meeting and shout down your opponent. That is the way the Chamber treated me. What astonishes me here is that it is being done in the school with children. That is the sneaky way to handle it. Remove the parents so they can't defend the children. Parents are wise and will recognize bad behavior and will speak out against it. Children on the other hand are defenseless against verbal abuse and cannot stand alone. Everyone of us over the age of thirty knows that children can be easily manipulated. If you remove responsible adult supervision (aka parents) then you can control the outcome.

Who was this meeting supervisor? Where did they get their credentials? Whatever happened to "zero tolerance of bullies" in schools? How could they sit there and allow one group to bully three students? Parents of children in the Ortonville school, be aware of this behavior. Protect your children.

Who were the two board members who were present? Did the board meet and appoint those two to represent them all at this meeting? Did these two just decide to go and not tell the board what was happening?

wiggles, thanks for keeping us informed. Stay strong. I just wanted you and The Lonesome Three to know that there are people out there who do not accept bad behavior and support your efforts. Keep us informed. Let the truth be told. As long as the truth is told then gossip cannot rule.

The Lonesome Three will be facing a hard road ahead of them. Since they have dared to defy the status quo they will be marked. Tell them that this is about courage. To stand against an injustice takes courage. Bulldog and LittleDeb have pointed out that evidently there are some people who will not speak out. Perhaps courage is in small supply in Ortonville. Are there no MEN of courage left in Ortonville to defend these girls? Is Ortonville filled with geldings?

Evidently arrogance rules in Ortonville. There is a difference between LEADership and MEadership. Leadership is a responsibility where you are accountable to everyone and look after the weakest and not allow injustice. Christianity teaches that a leader is a servant. MEadership is all about me. What I want. I am in charge and you do what I tell you to do. The arrogance of the MEadership at the school is revealed when they have a private meeting and allow young girls to be put down by other kids and then the MEaders tell them to "get over it" and "respect the coach."

This issue has now gone beyond the coaching issue. Now we have an administration issue as well. In their effort to defend their buddy at the expense of the children the administration has now exposed their real intent and it is now blatently obvious that there needs to be a change in the school administration as well.

LittleDeb wrote:

I will never forget when one of my children came home and told me a school administrator told another student in school, “you will never amount to anything, you’re better off putting a gun to their head and pull the trigger.” I’m sorry if this offended anyone but how do you think that student felt? To this day it still affects my children what happened in Ortonville school. I wish I would of spoke up more but this is the mindset of the school administration that we had to deal with and I see it still hasn’t changed. I see that the school administration still allow bullying among students and bully the parents when they speak up. It's too bad they don't follow their own bullying policy.

Thanks for sharing this LittleDeb. I believe that you mentioned in a previous post that the administration in place at the time your children were in school is not there now. That would mean that the present administration did not say this particular statement. It is only being used here as an example of some of the additude to be found in the Ortonville School. I appreciate your openness and your insight. You see things from a different perspective and it helps me to think.

LittleDeb in Ortonville School- How much money lost over a coach wrote:

I too, had to pull couple of my children out to attend other schools, not because of the teachers but because of an administrator who is no longer working for the school.

The ones attending this meeting were appointed by the board, it was Brent Zahrbock, Tim Henrich, Bob Ross, and Girls basketball coach Shiela. This meeting was not open to parents just the girls. I feel, like I said, those three young girls who did not get invited ( because they went to another school because of this issue) would have had a lot to say and also been their for the three who attended this meeting amongst the other girls that oppose what they had to say. This whole issue has been an administration issue from the start, like I said in prior articles, the private meetings we had with the administration, we were promised things were going to be resolved and like always they were just pushed under the rug. Well, not any more, you have me to speak out, I have nothing to lose, you have hurt my daughter and those other girls more than you will ever know and I will not stand for anyone getting hurt any more. I will be the voice for all, for I am an adult who respects children and adults who deserve to be respected.

"Respect the coach"? Excuse me? Should not the coach also respect the rights of these girls?

I personally have a low regard for people who treat young adults as children with little to no respect simply because they can.

Ideally, is school supposed to be a place of training for adulthood? If you expect young adults to become responsible adults, you should treat them with that same respect.

I admire and respect the courage, and maturity of these girls to stand up and speak out.

The fact that the administration just tries to sweep this under the rug and keep the parents out of the picture is totally inappropriate, and disrespectful behavior on their part to both the parents and the young ladies.

To the Lonesome Three and the parents who have dared to stand up and be heard, I salute you. I know it is not an easy thing to do, especially against your peers.

As for the administration, don't they seem to be setting a poor example for the future generation being trained in their school?

sickofit made a post on another thread seeBullypolice

I viewed that website and saw an ad for a book about Bullycide and clicked that link. It is very eye opening. There are children who commit suicide because of bullying. I am concerned for these girls. I have placed a video on the portal page showing this problem.

You can read the stories on this link bullycide.org

What is the school doing to protect these girls from more bullying?

To the Lonesome 3 you are NOT alone! You are NOT the problem. Others HAVE a problem. Confide in the people who love you. Burn it into your heart that there are many who may not know you personally but we would slay dragons to defend you.

You are loved.

Good people of Ortonville, my friend(s) are involved in all of this, it breaks my heart to see them like this over a sport they love.
I believe in my friends the lonesome 3! They need help and surpport from you. Their parents have tired their hardest to make it right. The parents try to stay upbeat and surpport their kids. So PLEASE help us, we are only a few in the ocean. Its gotten way to far, look at what it is doing to us! Its tiring friends and the team apart. All because of a couch. Is it worth it? My friends mean alot to me, i can not stand to see them cry no more. Help the rents stand up for us kids and whats right. If it was your kids what would you do? Would you stand with them or behind them?

-Driver

Driver
Peace and release aren't found in numbers -- if only one person reaches out to you, it can be enough...if that one person is someone you respect and admire, someone you would like to be like.
Many people are with you in their hearts, but don't have a chance or know how to show their solidarity.
Treasure those who make even a small gesture -- it's a BIG deal that they do so.
Perspective is also important -- this is only one small part of each day and a drop in the bucket of life. Find joy, enjoy friendships, laugh, get away from things. One of the best things you can do as a friend is to help keep this a very tiny part of the river of life. There's lots to see and do, and no need to dwell on what can't be controlled, changed or improved.
Good luck. There are many listening on this forum, even though they may not speak often.
Take care.

To the public who has read this issue, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU! I have been offline for a few days working on issues with the State of Minnesota on The Bullying issue and asking questions on why this is set up for just children and not adults in our Minnesota school systems. I was just contacted back and this issue has become great concern with some of the representatives of Minnesota and they are now contacting higher officials in this matter. Keep your heads up I promise this issue will not go away and I will do my best to resolve it, as people who know me, I am one who will continue to fight for what is right. Keep the faith and pray I am trying my best to get answers and know it will happen.This issue will stand as a high priority with me and we need to stand together. The lonesome three are doing great and are putting this issue behind them but continue to be there for each other and the rest of the people involved. Like I have said many times before, all children are my world, especially my own, and no and I mean no one will stand in my way in making the world a better place for them. If it is a sporting issue with a coach or a daily issue with anyone, I am there for them. We need to stand behind the children who seem not to have no voice in the world, adults are just as imperfect as children, there is no perfection in the world and people need to remember that. Stand strong as we are and believe the truth will come out.

I have been reading all of these threads since they began. This is a very interesting topic to me as I have been a member of not just basketball teams but also teams of many different kinds. I have seen it stated over and over that these girls have been hurt and bullyed but that is very general and vague. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what that means or give some specific examples of what has happened to these girls...Thanks

-Bballer

I really do not think it serves any purpose to disclose in a public forum the intimate details of what occurred. You can ridicule someone on this site just as easy as in a school.

My understanding and I think it was clear that the girls would start to state their differences and they were shouted down and chastised because they had a different opinion then the majority.

I understand why you would want to know but if there is genuine concern this is not the place. They obviously had hurt feelings and it is obvious that some say the meeting went well while others thought it was a horrible experience.

This is what I know. The minority will only do well and move beyond this experience when a Neutral intervenes and attempts to show both sides how it feels to be the odd guy out.

You really would not understand unless you were the only white guy in a minority house.

It is not what the girls experienced. These girls were already victimized once and anyone who has had any training in domestic abuse realizes that anything can re-trigger the negative experience.

I understand and appreciate your concern but the way to get this to heal is attempt to understand feelings. It is not trying to figure out who is right or wrong.

Mr. Mouthpiece, I am very confused by your previous post. I would like further clarity on what exactly happened to these girls. You say that a public forum is no place to ridicule someone all the while you ridicule everyone on the opposing side of your case. I think the most interesting thing to me is how you brought racism into this argument. What does race have to do with this? As part of a varsity team I have been yelled and screamed at numerous times even when doing what the coach has asked. Your last sentence also concerns me. You say this is not to find out who is right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, I would rather like to know who is right or wrong. Aren't we always after the truth? Aren't our court systems based on the truth?

I suspected your first posts was an attempt to lure children into a fight. I will not allow you on this cite to question a child in distress. Get a life!

The Truth! Learn compassion, understanding and try to respect an opinion that may be different than yours.

I just wanted to keep others from bullying. You can bully me all you want, but attacking a child. . . Shame on you!

Funny how oblivious some people are. If you followed the threads on this forum you would know what has happened and if the issue has no concern with you, why do you need to know the facts. Yes, I too played ball and was yelled at and such but in this case it is more than that. Put all the threads you have read and sow it together, the real picture should stand out in front of you.DAH!

bballer wrote:

I have been reading all of these threads since they began. This is a very interesting topic to me as I have been a member of not just basketball teams but also teams of many different kinds. I have seen it stated over and over that these girls have been hurt and bullyed but that is very general and vague. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what that means or give some specific examples of what has happened to these girls...Thanks

-Bballer

For information on bullying you can checkout the website Bully Police You can also do a search on the internet. Wikipedia has a section on it. There are many different perceptions of what bullying is. As this is an on going situation I do not know how appropriate it would be for any of the people involved to be giving "details" at this time. What appears to have happened is that there was a problem stretching out over three years. The parents tried to address the problem with the school administration. The problem was not resolved. The local newspaper made public a report that did not accurately describe the problem and that lead others to address the problem publicly to tell their side of the story.

What the public needs to know at this time is that there is a problem and the school administration needs to fix it. The school administration may have thought that the problem was solved. Now they are being made aware that the problem still exists and they now have an opportunity to find out what they missed and find a way to resolved the issue. It is all in perception. According to mouthpiece they came out of the private meeting thinking everything went well. Obviously they missed something. One of the biggest problems with "committees" that I see in Ortonville as a whole (not just in the school) is that everybody's friends are on it. When you have a group of people who all get along and agree then you can miss the opportunity to see the other side.

bballer wrote:

Mr. Mouthpiece, I am very confused by your previous post. I would like further clarity on what exactly happened to these girls.

By what right do you demand to know exactly what happened to these girls? No one is under any obligation to satisfy your curiosity. You can read the previous posts about this and get an idea of what the issue is. Any reasonable adult knows that the people involved in this situation do not want to compromise their position. Nor should they want to cause anymore distress to ANYONE involved. If this situation did result in litigation then information will be public and you can read it to your hearts content. Until then it is not likely that many details will be forthcoming. A reasonable adult knows that people need to protect their interests and not open themselves up to more trouble. The families want to address the problem and I believe the administration wants to resolve it also.

bballer wrote:

You say that a public forum is no place to ridicule someone all the while you ridicule everyone on the opposing side of your case. I think the most interesting thing to me is how you brought racism into this argument. What does race have to do with this?

Thank you bballer for these comments. It is EXACTLY what this issue of perception is about. Let me explain. It appears that mouthpiece PERCEIVED that your post was inappropriate. He responded to that perception. That may not have been your intent but it is possible he perceived it.

In response you replied in kind. You seemed to have perceived that he has ridiculed and brought racism into the discussion. In fact he appears to be making an analogy about people feeling left out. Here again it may not have been his intent but it is possible you perceived it.

This is what may have happened at the private meeting. The administration perceived it went well and acted on that perception. Someone needed to explain to them that their perception may have been flawed. Perhaps people would do better to "listen to what people are saying" and not respond to what they "assume they mean."

bballer wrote:

As part of a varsity team I have been yelled and screamed at numerous times even when doing what the coach has asked.

For many sports and even in the military the goal is to "toughen you up." For some toughening up is a good. How far they go is questionable. The young man who died down south because the coach pushed him and dehydration took his life is questionable. The question here is are we talking about the ordinary "toughen up" type of actions or are we talking about something out of the ordinary. It is the responsibility of those people involved to decide what it is and follow through with the situation. It is the responsibility of the people involved to act according to their conscience. If they have trouble dealing with a public entity then it is in the public's best interest to be informed that there is a problem. People who are public servants need to be accountable to the public for their actions.

bballer wrote:

last sentence also concerns me. You say this is not to find out who is right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, I would rather like to know who is right or wrong. Aren't we always after the truth? Aren't our court systems based on the truth?

Oh, if that were only true. Wasn't it Oliver Wendell Holmes who said, "This is a court of law, not a court of justice." The court systems are supposed to be based on the truth but it is run by people who can be flawed. There are many injustices to be found in the court system. There are many instances where the court system has ignored truth.

Your statement that you want to know who is right and who is wrong is understandable but until all the facts come out it would not be prudent to make a determination like that. Most reasonable adults also know that there will always be those people who see things from a different perspective and right and wrong will be judged differently according to a persons perspective. Even though the jury found that coach innocent in the death of the student there were many people who did not agree with the jury. So, was their finality in that case of a right or wrong? In the court system it was finished but in the public eye it was viewed differently by others. Even closer to home. When the jury ruled against a local Dr. and the hospital last November there were many people who thought that was wrong. Others thought it was right. You aren't likely to get an even consensus on it.

Mouthpiece- I do NOT want to lure children into a fight. It is ridiculous to think anyone would intentionally do anything remotely close to that to kids under the age of 18. Do you think that I am only writing to criticize people? I have been told my entire life that in order to make an educated decision, I should know the facts and both sides of the story before acting on instinct or gut feeling. Am I in the wrong to want to make a sound decision before picking a side? Even though you don't know who I am, please understand that bullying has hit very close to my heart and I know the extent of what it can do to a person!

Wiggles- I understand your concern for not wanting to tell me the intricate details because it may bring back these negative feelings. If you do not think this is in my interest to know because it should be kept private then why has this subject been brought to a public forum?

Lady Hawk- I did not mean to demand to know, I apologize for sounding that way and I can see how you read it to sound like a demand. What I was trying to say is that like most people, I would like to hear the story from both sides, not just one, before I make my decision on how I feel about this case. I also do not see how being the only white person in a minority house has anything to do with being left out. Being left out would be having an odd number to play a kickball game, having peers pick teams and being the only kid not picked. I'm guessing we grew up in different generations since I have no problem with minorities and think of them no different than I do a caucasion person. Please don't perceive that as me saying that Mouthpiece is racist because I do not personally know who Mouthpiece is and can not judge his/her character. I'm just saying that I have grown up with people as a whole and try not to look at any race being different from another.

Bballer

bballer wrote:

I have been told my entire life that in order to make an educated decision, I should know the facts and both sides of the story before acting on instinct or gut feeling. Am I in the wrong to want to make a sound decision before picking a side?

That is sound advise to know both sides before making a decision. In some cases though not all sides are available right away. It is a work in progress for the people involved.

bballer wrote:

Wiggles - I understand your concern for not wanting to tell me the intricate details because it may bring back these negative feelings. If you do not think this is in my interest to know because it should be kept private then why has this subject been brought to a public forum?

This has been brought to a public forum because the issue deals with a public entity and members of the public being concerned that the administration of the public entity is not acting effectively. Because it is a public entity it is under the scrutiny of public opinion. Now the public is aware there is a situation and the people involved will have to continue to address the problem. The issue was that the parents did not believe that the administration was listening to them. The public may not be privy to all the details at this time.

bballer wrote:

Lady Hawk- I did not mean to demand to know, I apologize for sounding that way and I can see how you read it to sound like a demand. What I was trying to say is that like most people, I would like to hear the story from both sides, not just one, before I make my decision on how I feel about this case.

You will have to be patient like the rest of us. It may take some time for all this to work out. We may not get all the details. For now we can only form partial and inconclusive opinions based upon the information that we have and we need to be willing to adjust those opinions if new information comes to our attention. It is up to the people involved to decide how they will work this out. Your gracious apology is accepted. Perhaps I too was hasty in using the word demand and I will try to be more cautious in the future. This is a good example of how much can be accomplished in a dialog when people listen and respond to one another.

bballer wrote:

I also do not see how being the only white person in a minority house has anything to do with being left out. Being left out would be having an odd number to play a kickball game, having peers pick teams and being the only kid not picked.

A good response. One could also say it is how the only person feels that would determine if they were odd. For some people it would make no difference. For others they might feel different.

bballer wrote:

I'm guessing we grew up in different generations since I have no problem with minorities and think of them no different than I do a caucasion person. Please don't perceive that as me saying that Mouthpiece is racist because I do not personally know who Mouthpiece is and can not judge his/her character. I'm just saying that I have grown up with people as a whole and try not to look at any race being different from another.

Bballer

I am not taking offense to your statement but would like to point out that being of a different generation has no bearing on prejudice. I grew up in the 50's and 60's. I watched Martin Luther King lead marches on TV. As a child I was shocked to learn that in the south they had separate counters for people to eat on and bathrooms and drinking fountains. I never felt there was any difference between people even though I didn't personally know any minorities.

If I may momentarily digress let me point out that there are no different "races" of people. There is only one "race"... the "human race." There are simply some different "tribes" of humans. We are all the same color. Shall I repeat that? We are all the same color. In all of our skin is a pigment called melanin. You can have a lot of it and be dark or a little of it and be very light. It is like different shades of blue. You can have a pale baby blue or a dark navy blue or any shade of blue in between. So you see we are all the same "color." See Melanin We have all descended from the first man Adam and are all part of the same family.

What people sometimes forget is that there was a social problem in the south that finally was brought to the attention of the people in the north. It was the pressure from the public that forced the changes in the south. And it should also be said that there were many in the south who were also working for that change. This is kind of like what is happening here. The public has been made aware of a situation and now people have to resolve it knowing that there is public scrutiny involved. Time will tell how it will turn out.

Nice visiting with you. Stop by anytime.

Solomon didn't have all the details when two women were brought before him, each claiming to be the real mother of the same baby. He was able to "choose a side" based on each woman's reaction to his judgment that the child be cut in half and a half given to each woman. One woman accepted that decision, while the other threw her body over the child, exposing herself to the sword about to come down. She yielded her claim to the child, pleading with Solomon so give the baby to the other woman so it might live. Wise Solomon had tricked the real mother into revealing herself...and the fraud into revealing herself.
The reactions and actions of various parties to this ongoing issue do more to tell what's going on than do details that will either come out in their own time or not, as appropriate.
A judge's remarks at the sentencing of a young husband recently also illustrates 'revealing' actions. The newlyweds often practiced checking and clearing their apartment at night with unloaded weapons. One night three or four months into their marriage, as they ran their drill, the husband's weapon went off and his bride was dead. Seemed like a case of a broken-hearted groom, but not so. The man got a severe jail sentence, the judge stating that on the 911 tape, not one time did the man speak to his moaning wife to comfort her or apologize. Conflicting evidence was not hard for either the jury or the judge to sort out, based on the man's 'mistakes' in his scam to murder his wife.
Sometimes details are not the important parts of an incident. Lady Hawk is right -- they will come out to the public in time, or not, as appropriate. In the meantime, there's plenty in the thread that shows what's going on. And PERCEPTION of a victim is all important. That's an important aspect that as yet is being overlooked in the attempts at resolution.

bballer, to explain my situation for writing on the forum is simple. The Ortonville paper has chosen to write things about this issue in a way that was unacceptable, the paper had no right to write anything of it because none of us involved talked to the paper or anyone that wrote about this issue in the paper. People always think what they read in the paper is true,in fact it is not. The forum gives me my freedom to tell the truth and not have is twisted into something someone else wants to write or hear. In time this will be in the local paper if I choose to place it there. At this time I am still gathering information and need my own space to express my feelings. Thanks to all for their input on the forums, you have given me the perspective to continue with my research on this issue and the strength to get through each day, one at a time. And to you who have made this forum available to the public, Thank you, you have done a great thing for a lot of people. Keep the Faith in the Forum!